Saint Thomas Choir of Men & Boys

[Surpinto]

I wanted to start a thread dedicated to this choir in no small part because I think this is a real gem of the Anglican choral tradition, but in the United States. As someone who has personally attended concerts and services numerous times at this beautiful church, I can attest that the musical quality is top notch, and only the more selective choirs in England (who have a far more talented pool of applicants to pull from due to that country's choir tradition which is mostly absent in the US) can really rival it – because otherwise the choir is on par with similar liturgical choirs. It should come as no surprise that a certain member of this forum whose username may or may not start with the letter "Y" told me about them years ago .

As someone for whom working out at the gym is a regular discipline and hobby, I often found myself listening to evensong live while doing my evening routines at the gym….making it a gymensong as Citlec is aware from prior correspondence

The church building itself is really quite something, located on 5th Avenue in New York, and built in the gothic style, the services are definitely high church and Anglo-Catholic with colorful processions of clergy in copes, incense, and a lot of intentionality put into the combination of worship and music. The church is a parish in the Episcopal Church, which is a part of the larger Anglican Communion and affiliated with the Church of England.

For those not acquainted with the choir here are a few musical highlight links to give you an idea of their high standards. Please keep in mind that these are not professional recordings but are actually recorded live during services as their services are video livestreamed. To be sure these are probably some of the highest quality church service webcasts of a traditional service (as opposed to a megachurch type service) with multiple cameras and multiple camera angles operated by operators on a soundboard and computer setup in the upper organ loft. There are at least 6 high quality cameras which are hard-mounted to various stone pillars in the church and which are able to pivot the camera's position and angle and zoom remotely by an operator.





The first piece of music needs no introduction, but the second is one that I expect is unfamiliar to most: it’s the “Salvator Mundi 2” by Tallis. Most are familiar with Tallis’ “Salvator Mundi 1”, and rarely is a distinction made in the title on an album, but there is a second version.

For those unfamiliar, the church runs its own choir school – a boarding school that is a few blocks away from the church. The school teaches only the choristers of the choir and as such the education is very expensive seeing as there are only 30 or so boys being educated there, but all of different ages. With that come different grade levels and academic, as well as musical, needs. Not to mention the expense of boarding itself. The church heavily subsidizes the choir school, and the choir school runs at an effective loss despite charging tuition to the parents; though the school states that tuition is charged based on financial need and that most families receive a steep discount on the tuition.

So, aside from just bringing to everyone's attention this really cool church and choir, it also is with sadness that I bring up that the choir school will likely be closing or perhaps modifying how it has done business for something like 100 years.

You can all guess the reasons why: money. With the huge decline in church attendance and therefore of church donations the model has become even more unsustainable than it was in the past. According to the church the choir school was a financial burden on its endowment even decades ago, but now it has come to a critical juncture.

At the moment the church has convened a task force to try and decide how to proceed going forward. The choir school will open in its traditional format for the 2024-25 school year, but afterwards there will be some kind of change.

Here are a few articles about this as well as the task force’s initial report.

https://anglican.ink/2024/03/16/st-thom ... ir-school/
https://www.saintthomaschurch.org/wp-co ... -Force.pdf
https://web.archive.org/web/20240402115 ... chool.html (the link uses web archive to bypass the paywall).

So it looks like unless they partner with this local school for the boy's academic education, but maintain chorister boarding and musical instruction at their own facility, I don't see how they can maintain the high level of musicianship that they have heretofore been able to produce.

More likely is that they will do what many English cathedrals have done and that is to form two choir lines: a boy’s and a girl’s. Though in this case the choir would be an after-school activity Which means that there will be far less rehearsal and far less musical training provided for both of the two choir lines, let alone just for one (fewer services sung, fewer hours of rehearsal, less music theory instruction, fewer 1-on-1 voice lessons).

There is room for optimism, but we shall certainly have to see how this all plays out.

Oh....and here's a photo of Libera posed outside that church during their 2023 visit to New York!

[Citlec]

That is worrying news indeed. St Thomas is the only US choir that I would put on a par quality wise with the top UK choirs. Sure there are other good ones, but none that can even closely match, particularly on liturgical pieces. It's a sad state of affairs, but is in some ways inevitable in the modern world.

Just to note, as far as I know the only choir school in the UK who exclusively educate Choristers is Westminster Abbey Choir School. And I suspect they get quite a bit of financial support from influential donors, given their importance to the UK tradition... but just a few hundred meters down the road, Westminster Cathedral went through a similar crisis a few years ago. That appears, somehow to be resolved and I note that the choir has recently been recording a new CD. But I haven't followed in detail what changes were made to facilitate this continuation. Down in Winchester, there has been a minor kerfuffle regarding leaked plans to "widen participation" which effectively would see the world class choir replaced over time with community choirs. Andrew Lumsden left under unclear circumstances, and neither the cathedral nor Lumsden have commented citing non disclosure agreements,  something the church is supposed to have banned... but the rumours are, he didn't entirely leave happily and that it was in part due to the new choral strategy... It remains to be seen what that means for Winchester...

But back to St Thomas. Obviously educating such a small number of student to a high standard is expensive. If a deal with a local school is possible. Whereby the education component is taken from them but that there is still regular choral practice, then hopefully that will be the solution. As for girls choirs, that is probably inevitable,  it widens participation, widens the parent base, and fee income. I will always object to the introduction of mixed choirs, but I have 'almost' no issue with seperate choirs of girls and boys, sharing of services, etc. But if the main cost and barrier to continuing is in the cost of the education service them I hope that is the way forward. What this will mean for practice times and service provision is obviously a concern, but I'd say... a reduced choral service is better than no choral services at all...

Despite having never heard them live I hold St Thomas in high regard, and I hope that the future will give me an opportunity to do so.

I noted that in the NYC Maestro film event in which Malakai flew over to sing... it was a chorister from St Thomas who was the backup.

I very much hope and cross my fingers that they find a way to keep the choir going, it would be a tremendous loss. Not to mention your cardio workouts would be shot to hell, and you'd have to skip leg or arm day, or both...

[Surpinto]

Well said, and this appears to be a problem not limited purely to New York or this one choir. There has been a slow but steady downgrading of these sorts of things for years across the choir world as you have so clearly and carefully elucidated.

I noted that in the NYC Maestro film event in which Malakai flew over to sing... it was a chorister from St Thomas who was the backup.

Yup! His understudy was the boy who sang "Hear My Prayer" in my link above.

I very much hope and cross my fingers that they find a way to keep the choir going, it would be a tremendous loss. Not to mention your cardio workouts would be shot to hell, and you'd have to skip leg or arm day, or both...

Hahaha, nothing stops my workouts....NOTHING!

[Yorkie]

This is such an awful state of affairs. I would actually put the St Thomas choir on a higher level than many UK Cathedrals because the top line is just the boys. Therefore they sing almost every service, every big occasion & celebration and album gaining far more experience than their UK counterparts (bar one or two exceptions).

Choir schools are expensive that is a fact and they are closing in the UK too. I hope that they keep it as a specific group of boys who continue to board but attend a separate school for their lessons and sing all services. The other options can only result in a much inferior choir.

Celtic mentioned the debacle that is going on at Winchester Cathedral which is purely driven by money and has resulted in the loss of one of the UKs great DoM - the rumour, which I can't confirm, is that they want to replace the choir with a cheaper 'community' alternative under the guise of being more inclusive. It seems that the new clergy in charge of the Cathedral fell out with the musicians over things like fees for streaming services and because the choir wouldn't give in they have determined to break it & rebuild it in a different way. Not very Christian and quality be damned.

[Citlec]

...but I have 'almost' no issue with seperate choirs of girls and boys, sharing of services, etc.

I would actually put the St Thomas choir on a higher level than many UK Cathedrals because the top line is just the boys. Therefore they sing almost every service, every big occasion & celebration and album gaining far more experience than their UK counterparts (bar one or two exceptions).

Yeah, that's what I meant by "almost" no issue. Because as you said, sharing services with a second top line choir will inevitably mean less practise and a less extensive repertoire. It is inevitable that there will be a slight decline in quality as a result. How slight that is, will depend on how it's managed. St Paul's announced this today:

https://x.com/StPaulsChoir/status/1807317502994575628

Westminster Abbey founded the St Margaret's Choristers last year, and from September they will be singing one evensong a week in the Wabbey.

It was always a losing battle and even organisations like the Traditional Cathedral Choir Association that had a little money behind them, failed to stem the tide. On the grounds of inclusion, and widening participation it's just impossible to counter. Quality be damned...

[j8000]

Note that St Paul's are taking the unprecedented step of increasing the number of services concomitant with the introduction of the girl's choir, with daily sung Mattins meaning that boys will not see a reduction in the number of services sang each week. The separate tops lines there will commence from 2025, I believe a few girls may sing alongside the boys prior to that in order to help them prepare.

Westminster Abbey's choir school doesn't get by on big private donations but rather on the large sums earned from tourists to the Abbey, which is obviously something not available to St Thomas's.

[Citlec]

In 2022, there were Donations and grants towards Music at the Abbey of £0.896m which is a significant proportion of the £3.635m cost of the choir and music for that year. But yes, I grant in general, that Westminster Abbey does have a much more significant income stream from tourism than St Thomas.

Interesting about the additional services at St Paul's and I applaud that. But I would suggest that is the exception, in institutions introducing a second top line, rather than the norm.

I guess at the end of the day there's nothing I can do about it anyway. I'll just have to hope that Scott Price NEVER retires.

[Surpinto]

To continue the dialogue, I do believe that the clergy and lay leadership of Saint Thomas are acutely aware that the uniqueness and high standard of the choir is what draws people to services there. You can see the differences in attendance on the livestream (and in the pews) when the full choir isn't singing during various school breaks.

I also believe that they would maintain the current situation if money were not a factor, as I haven't seen anything communicated by the church that would suggest an ulterior motive or agenda. In fact, quite the opposite, as the rector is a big fan of the status quo and of maintaining the choir school. He is a former chorister himself and has a special affinity for the choir and the choir school.

Likely the leadership is aware that should they do away with the choir – or somehow devolve it into a community choir of middling standards – that this action would erode away at both church attendance and donations; especially given the dramatic decline in church attendance generally and the precipitous decline in the Episcopal Church in particular.

For churchgoers in New York City the choices of Episcopal churches which they could theoretically attend are large and the subway makes many of them easily and quickly accessible. The traditional geographic model of parish churches simply doesn't apply in a large city where transportation is so quick and easy. Why stay at Saint Thomas if the thing that makes it special is gone? And even if most stay, there would be little to attract new members.

I see the partnership with the school as being the only good alternative assuming it can be executed correctly. One of the draws for parents of the choir school is the intimate community and incredibly small class sizes that such a school can offer. Can a different school match that quality and appeal for the parents? Because in that case they are not just signing up for a chorister program but are signing their students up as pupils at this other school as well.

[Surpinto]

Seems they're moving in precisely the direction anticipated. From their newsletter:

As we continue to explore the sustainability of the Choir School, many of you have asked if we should now be admitting girls also. I have also been sent images of girls now singing alongside boys in St. Paul’s Cathedral, London.



Opening our tradition to girls is one thing, but the sustainability of the Choir School is another. Currently, the Parish covers 89% of the cost of the school and, if that financial model does not change, going co-educational changes nothing, just as doubling the number of choristers, be they male or female, would not make the school sustainable on the current financial model.



What we do know is that, once we have made the Choir School sustainable, we want to think about how girls and women can sing at Saint Thomas. To be absolutely clear, I am not promoting a mixed choir of girls and boys like St. Paul’s Cathedral or St. John’s College, Cambridge, have introduced. I remain committed, as does the Vestry, to preserving and sustaining our now (unique in the USA) tradition of a boys singing. However, this does not preclude having a separate girls’ choir in the future.

[Citlec]

It sounds like they have a good handle on the situation and have a good philosophy and outlook. I really hope they can resolve their problems and find a sustainable financial plan.

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I still worry about the future of boys' choirs in general. Where will the outstanding tenors, baritones and basses of the future come from? There is already a problem recruiting and finding Tenors and Basses, as this recently posted advert for spaces at the London Youth Choir neatly illustrates. That problem will only get worse if the systematic destruction of dedicated spaces for boys to sing continues.

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453063764_969729141572158_965788544189514908_n.jpg (43.19 KiB) Viewed 1709 times

[Surpinto]

An update from the church. It looks like they're going with an outsourcing model in which the academic education of the choristers will occur at a different school, but they will still board at the current choir school. Their musical education would also mostly take place within the choir school.

From what I see on the map, their new school is a mere 10-15 minute walk away from the current location. My guess is that they will use the former classroom space to either increase the number of boarding choristers/probationers and/or add girls to the boarding space. The girls, according to the rector, would be a separate choir line, but no details on a girls choir has been decided. It could very well be that the girls are purely a community choir not subject to the stringent schedule and musical regimen as the boys. This wouldn't be totally crazy, as they currently have a general children's choir (called the "Noble Singers") who sing a special family-centered service which occurs separately from the main service on Sundays.

We'll see how this goes, I'm just glad to hear that the choir will be maintained.

The rector's message is below.

Dear Friends,



It is with great excitement that I share a momentous step forward for the Saint Thomas community. Today, the Vestry announces the successful preservation of the Choir School through an academic collaboration with the Professional Children's School in New York. This partnership secures a sustainable future for the Choir School and Choir of Men & Boys while preserving the values, mission, and unique choral heritage we cherish. This decision comes after 18 months of prayerful work to develop a plan to address the budget deficit while protecting the spiritual and financial well being of the institution as a whole.



In May 2023, the Vestry, clergy, and senior lay staff gathered for a three-day retreat to review the 2019 Strategic Plan and envision the post-pandemic future of Saint Thomas Church, focusing on finally addressing the long-standing financial deficit in the operating budget and unsustainable funding model for the Choir School, which has strained the unrestricted General Fund for decades. In December 2023, the Vestry responded to concerns about the General Fund's erosion by cutting nearly $1 million from the church’s operating budget and postponing capital projects. Music expenses remain a significant cost, comprising almost half of the church's $14 million budget, and more than 50% when adding other administrative costs. To ensure fiscal sustainability, the Vestry considered closing the Choir School but instead entered a period of discernment to explore alternative financial models. Since March, this process has included broad community engagement and consultation with Carney Sandoe & Associates. The church has appreciated the commitment shown by community members and budget-holders throughout this process.



The time has come for change, in order for us to be fiscally responsible in the medium-term so that we can grow our invested funds, build on them, and live towards a more sustainable future long-term.



The Vestry has now had time to reflect on the various models put forward by the Sustainability Task Force and we have come to a decision. We believe that the Collaboration Model with Professional Children’s School (PCS) offers the best way forward to preserve our unique choral heritage in a modern world while putting the church on a path to financial sustainability.



We are not calling this the ‘partnership model’ anymore because our two schools will not be merging; rather, PCS will provide the core academic instruction to our students, while we retain a residential Choir School built on religious principles, centered on the liturgical life of Saint Thomas Church Fifth Avenue.



Any change is hard – we recognize that – but we also believe that these careful plans are the beginning of something fresh and new, yet retaining all that we hold dear, including a Choir School that is a home-away-from-home for those who live, learn, and sing there. Many alumni have told me about the transformative experience they had at Saint Thomas Choir School. By retaining the boarding program, the rigorous musical and liturgical training, and the nurturing atmosphere of our small community, the collaboration with PCS will make those transformative experiences available to new generations of choristers.



Let there be no doubt: the Christian character of our school will remain as vibrant and central as ever. Our boys will continue to be nurtured in an environment that includes liturgy, prayer and spirituality, an exploration of Christian ethics and morals, and all rooted in the study of the Bible, and lived out in the Anglican tradition. In addition to our boarding staff, we will continue to employ a School Chaplain who will not only have a pastoral role but will continue to be responsible for ensuring the teaching of Theology and preparing children for Baptism, Holy Communion and Confirmation. We will continue to offer classical lessons such as Latin. The clergy team will continue to support the House Parents and School Chaplain in all aspects of our school’s life.



Music, of course, will continue to be at the heart of the academic life of our school, and this will mainly be taught in the Choir School, as well as at PCS. Instrumental lessons and vocal lessons will continue to have their important place alongside choir practice.



The Professional Children's School is renowned for nurturing talented young artists and has a long history of successful partnerships with organizations such as the School of American Ballet (SAB). We are confident that our boys will receive exceptional support from a school that understands the unique and demanding needs of artistic and dedicated students.



Next steps:



Looking forward, we are thrilled to work closely with parents, staff, and PCS to bring this vision to life. Together, we will fine-tune the day-to-day schedule for our choristers, enhancing both their academic and musical experiences while maintaining the structure that has served our school so well. Mother Alison Turner, our Choir School Chaplain and a life-long educator, has been appointed Interim Director of Transition, formally commencing in January 2025, and will be dedicated to supporting our community at every step, ensuring this process is as seamless and enriching as possible.



· We will continue to consult with the parents of our choristers to ensure that they fully understand what will change, and what will not change in the day-to-day life of a chorister, so that with confidence, they can re-enroll their boys for the academic year 2025-26.



· We will be discussing with our current faculty and staff next steps, as we recognize the significant changes this model will present to some of them.



· We will be working with PCS to ensure that appropriate staffing will be provided for Grades 4 and 5 going forward (PCS will re-open those grades in its school).



· We will cease admitting boys into Grade 3; it is helpful to remember that Grade 4 only began in 1998 and Grade 3 was introduced in 2007.



· Meetings have been held for some weeks now exploring the day-to-day life of the choristers and how PCS can support their academic needs, while allowing the same amount of time for their choir training, and the (on-average) five liturgical services a week plus concerts.



· We will advise our accrediting body, The New York Association of Independent Schools (NYSAIS), how these changes will be implemented and their consequences. We will continue to remain affiliated to the Choir Schools Association, and hope that our long association with the National Association of Episcopal Schools, and The Association of Boarding Schools will also continue.



· We will discuss with the current Board of Trustees a plan for a formal ending of that Board, and the creation of a new governance body with an appropriate constitution from September 2025.



· Finally, the Vestry resolution makes clear that we expect work to begin in earnest to form a separate girls’ choir; this may very well be in collaboration with another school. Furthermore, we expect that the success of the Noble Singers will serve as an impetus to increase our musical outreach into the local community, thus sharing what we treasure with as wide a group of children as possible.



At a time when the choral tradition that we have inherited from the cathedrals and collegiate chapels of England remains under threat, and so many English cathedrals are struggling with the exact same financial problems as we are, the Vestry hopes that this solution will actually strengthen and grow our unique choral heritage.



So that there can be no doubt – this is the first stage in making our finances sustainable in the long-term. The Annual Appeal will continue to be hugely important to the well-being of our parish going forward; the investment committee will continue to give a strong lead in our fiscal planning; the importance of the Noble and Duffie Guilds cannot be overstated. At the same time, we are thinking about new revenue streams, and strengthening our programs so that Saint Thomas remains a beacon for as wide a group of people as possible.



Because some of you will be thinking this, let me state it – we may fail in our endeavors. Recruitment has always been a challenge for us at Saint Thomas even with the parish paying 89% of the $4 million cost of the school, and we will need to recruit boys to this new model which is, of course, not yet tested. Time will tell, but we are committed to making this work. As I have said many times, I did not come to New York ten years ago to close the Choir School – it is something I have cherished. If we hold our nerve, move forward in hope, and work together, we can only strengthen our resolve. If we pull back, or are fearful of this change, we will not engender that hope.



Finally, I want to express my deep gratitude for the dedication and professionalism of our existing Head of School, Christopher Seeley, and the Choir School faculty and staff. Their commitment to nurturing the boys musically, academically, and spiritually has been nothing short of exceptional, and they have been the heart and soul of the Choir School. We recognize that the foundation they have built is what makes this next chapter possible, and we are immensely thankful for their unwavering devotion to the mission of Saint Thomas.



We will be holding some further meetings to answer peoples’ questions as we move forward, and I ask for your continued support so that we can continue to worship, love, and serve our Lord Jesus Christ through the Anglican Tradition and our unique choral heritage.



Sincerely,

The Rev. Canon Carl F. Turner, Rector

and on behalf of the Vestry

[Yorkie]

Thanks for the update. Short of finding a lot of money to carry on as they are now, that is probably the best outcome that could be hoped for. Let's hope parents are not put off by the change in the educational arrangements.

[fan_de_LoK]

There is an article about the choir in this magazine.

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20241112_224710.jpg (695.15 KiB) Viewed 207 times

https://www.gramophone.co.uk/choir-and- ... hoir-organ

[Surpinto]

There is an article about the choir in this magazine.

Thank you! They are well known in the choral music world and have garnered a lot of esteem and prestige over the years for their music. Plus, their livestream services are top-notch in terms of audio and video quality!

There does not appear to be a way to access the full article without paying some subscription fee but if you zoom in on the screenshot of the article, you can definitely read it just with some annoyance