UK Cathedral Concerts in 2024

[fan_de_LoK]

Here is a comparison of the Ely stage and musician positions in the four concerts they have had there. Last image from Fons.

In 2017 there were 4 rows in the crescent seats but the stage was the furthest back it has ever been. I don't recall any audio problems for this one.
In 2018 there were 2 rows in the crescent seats but with the stage significantly further forward. This is the year I had issues with the musicians right on top of me and a massive imbalance. (you can even see me in the photo less than 2m from the closest musician!)
In 2022 there were 2 rows in the crescent seats the stage somewhere between the last two positions. I had no audio issue.
In 2024 there were 4 rows in the crescent seats and stage in about the same position as 2022. but the two extra rows does mean the front row was closer than 2022. I had no issues, but some others did and I noticed a new speaker setup being used, which I'm guessing was designed to distribute the sound around more than the big speakers they have used in the past?

I mean I would say the ideal would be that 2017 stage position, but with the speaker setup of 2024. but there are of course always limitations on the day, particularly if you need space at the back for equipment and for the furniture of Ely itself (like the moveable choir stalls). At the end of the day all four of the concerts were fantastic, even 2018, and you can't please everyone all of the time. Though if the Always Applauding-early Dipstick could learn to wait a few seconds...

Thank you for the work done, it is very useful

The stage setup in 2024 appears to be quite similar to that of 2022.
The same height, as indicated by the access stairs, and the same positioning of the musicians in front of the stage, which I didn't recall

[fan_de_LoK]

I wouldn't want to start drifting the conversation towards the upcoming concerts when the previous one was just three days ago, but nonetheless, a little comparison with the stage setup at Chester Cathedral.

I looked at the photos I took before the 2010 concert there, fourteen years ago.

The space where the altar is located is raised by two small steps.

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Chester Cathedral - front of pews.jpg (692.43 KiB) Viewed 1921 times

Chester Cathedral - front of pews.jpg (692.43 KiB) Viewed 1921 times

Chester Cathedral - altar.jpg (727 KiB) Viewed 1921 times

Chester Cathedral - altar.jpg (727 KiB) Viewed 1921 times

In 2010, there was no built stage. The boys performed their concert standing directly on the ground, only slightly raised by the two small steps compared to the audience.

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Chester Cathedral - stage.jpg (801.56 KiB) Viewed 1921 times

Chester Cathedral - stage.jpg (801.56 KiB) Viewed 1921 times

Given the boys small stature, it's safe to say that only the first two or three rows of the audience must have been able to see them.
After that, there was only the central aisle to catch a glimpse of anything.

There was indeed the construction of a raised platform, but this was only for the musicians, positioned behind the choir.
The stage budget in 2010 was undoubtedly limited.

It seems almost certain that the stage arrangement will be different in 2024, with a real raised stage being constructed this time.
Well, let's hope so

[Citlec]

It looks like a tight squeeze, but I'm sure Libera will manage. In Chichester 2022 at the interval I had to move out of the way, on my chair next to a pillar, to let a musician pass me, because she was trapped between the stage and the rabid horde of Libera fans, with no way out...

Still not sure if I will make Chester, but I hope I can. Feels like it could be a special one, in a more intimate, but still spectacular, venue.

[Surpinto]

It seems almost certain that the stage arrangement will be different in 2024, with a real raised stage being constructed this time.
Well, let's hope so

I most certainly hope so! It would be disappointing if only those in the front row could see anything. Is Lincoln any better in this regard?

[Padmachou]

I have a little surprise I know someone was disappointed they could not hear the "Libera-7 parts" introduction again... Well, I am really NOT sure I got it right, actually the last note is a guess, it might be an other one, really... It's just how I remember it but I can't exactly hear it when I listen to the full song.

So, here is how I wrote it on a score (all the notes gathering and then all of it separately).


And here is the soundcloud playing it, piano style :
https://soundcloud.com/sibylle-padmacho ... al_sharing

If someone has an other guess for the 7th note, please share, I would really like to know for sure !

[Lavendel]

Wow, thanks Padmachou! I have been wondering what those seven layers would be, because I cannot hear them all separately in the song. Now I understand it better. Is this also how they would sing it in the small demo?

As for the lyrics of God Only Knows that has been discussed in different places: I’m not sure, but I thought, because in the music video they show Libera on tour and the fans, that their interpretation might be that Libera would not be the same without people listening to it. Of course people certainly don’t only sing for others, but it is nice when others like it too I guess . And the video shows the parents and the boys having fun on tour, so also what would Libera be without each other? What do you think?

Thank you all for your comments and reviews. It has been great to read so far and it is nice to be able to join in the excitement this way.

[gingerthedog1]

I have a little surprise I know someone was disappointed they could not hear the "Libera-7 parts" introduction again... Well, I am really NOT sure I got it right, actually the last note is a guess, it might be an other one, really... It's just how I remember it but I can't exactly hear it when I listen to the full song.

So, here is how I wrote it on a score (all the notes gathering and then all of it separately).


And here is the soundcloud playing it, piano style :
https://soundcloud.com/sibylle-padmacho ... al_sharing

If someone has an other guess for the 7th note, please share, I would really like to know for sure !

I sat extremely close (right in front of) Joseph during the St John's Smith Square concert, who happened to be singing the top note. I'm confident that the top note is an A sharp... one whole tone above the G sharp.

I also just confirmed this by listening to the live recording on youtube!

[Luckdragon]

Those cathedrals were designed to have amazing acoustics. Boys have sung in them for hundreds of years without the need for microphones and speakers. Why do we suddenly need them now?

[fugalharmony]

Those cathedrals were designed to have amazing acoustics. Boys have sung in them for hundreds of years without the need for microphones and speakers. Why do we suddenly need them now?

I'm tempted to give an answer, but I feel like you have the ability to figure that out.

[Citlec]

I should simply refer you to fugalharmony's answer! But seeing as I've typed this already...

I'll answer that with a comparison of Magdalen. A few months ago I attended a pair of concerts by Magdalen in two different small spaces, Magdalen Chapel and Temple Church in which the choir sang Buxtehude's "Membra Jesu Nostri" which was exceptional in that it offered eight different treble soloists. Now, remarkably, none of the eight were bad, all had good voices, but the range in confidence and in ability to project their voices varied massively. This wasn't at all a problem in Magdalen Chapel, but may have been to those furthest away at Temple? But could they effectively have sung in a larger space?

Back in 2019 I attended a choristers of Britain concert with the top choristers from cathedrals all over the country gathered in Liverpool Anglican Cathedral, the fifth largest cathedral in the world by volume. They sung Miserere Mei Deus, and the high C solos were shared between two soloists, both had great tone and control, but one was a little less able to fill the vast space effectively than the other. The great voice was a boy from New College, the exceptional voice, the one that you could hear clearly and did manage to carry through the cavernous interior? Archie White. So it does take a special voice be heard clearly in those big buildings.

But surely we have exceptional voices in Libera, I hear you say? Of course, but do you expect Ben to belt out his solos with enough volume for those at the back of Ely to hear without risking losing tone and control?

In Ely Cathedral, "the total length is 164 metres (537 ft), and the nave at over 75 m (246 ft) long remains one of the longest in Britain".

[fugalharmony]

I should simply refer you to fugalharmony's answer! But seeing as I've typed this already...

I'll answer that with a comparison of Magdalen. A few months ago I attended a pair of concerts by Magdalen in two different small spaces, Magdalen Chapel and Temple Church in which the choir sang Buxtehude's "Membra Jesu Nostri" which was exceptional in that it offered eight different treble soloists. Now, remarkably, none of the eight were bad, all had good voices, but the range in confidence and in ability to project their voices varied massively. This wasn't at all a problem in Magdalen Chapel, but may have been to those furthest away at Temple? But could they effectively have sung in a larger space?

Back in 2019 I attended a choristers of Britain concert with the top choristers from cathedrals all over the country gathered in Liverpool Anglican Cathedral, the fifth largest cathedral in the world by volume. They sung Miserere Mei Deus, and the high C solos were shared between two soloists, both had great tone and control, but one was a little less able to fill the vast space effectively than the other. The great voice was a boy from New College, the exceptional voice, the one that you could hear clearly and did manage to carry through the cavernous interior? Archie White. So it does take a special voice be heard clearly in those big buildings.

But surely we have exceptional voices in Libera, I hear you say? Of course, but do you expect Ben to belt out his solos with enough volume for those at the back of Ely to hear without risking losing tone and control?

In Ely Cathedral, "the total length is 164 metres (537 ft), and the nave at over 75 m (246 ft) long remains one of the longest in Britain".

Well, you certainly explained one of the main reasons, but I think there are other factors too. There are Libera songs where the effect of softer singing being amplified is important. I know they recently sang "I am the Day", and I can't imagine them doing it properly without any microphones. I also couldn't imagine the opening solo part of "The Prayer" being done without the microphones, without the singer having to sing it too forcefully. There are certain songs or sections of songs where the microphones are probably less prominent, but this gives them the freedom to create a certain effect/atmosphere for each song. I guess the biggest takeaway is that the microphones allow Libera to achieve certain things sonically that wouldn't be possible otherwise. This unique experience is what sets them apart from traditional choral concerts.

[Luckdragon]

I'll answer that with a comparison of Magdalen...

Well, you certainly explained one of the main reasons, but I think there are other factors too...

Thank you for your long answers to what seems like a silly question. It's true that Libera does a lot of things other choirs don't that requires amplification and sound processing (a whole different discussion). Hopefully it's not to the point of limiting that natural cathedral sound.

However, touring groups from the Vienna Boys Choir perform acoustic concerts in large venues regularly. Here's the Vienna Boys Choir at the Chicago Symphony in November 2023 with nary a microphone in sight.

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405154231_1445339339412872_5905945999295932106_n.jpg (871.95 KiB) Viewed 1667 times

Granted, the touring singers are usually 12 or 13 and have reached max treble volume.

[Surpinto]

However, touring groups from the Vienna Boys Choir perform acoustic concerts in large venues regularly. Here's the Vienna Boys Choir at the Chicago Symphony in November 2023 with nary a microphone in sight.

Granted, the touring singers are usually 12 or 13 and have reached max treble volume.

Except in those groups all the boys are pretty much singing the same thing or at most have a two-part harmony. They also only have a piano rather than a small orchestra.

I remember attending a choral concert where an orchestra was playing and even when all of the treble and lower voices were singing the same thing the volume level was definitely not particularly high even in the acoustically resonant church I was in (St Paul's Harvard Square). The recording they put out later to those who paid for it, mixed the voices up a lot louder. As was already stated, young boys are not exactly known for their ability to project well. I've heard enough treble solos during church services at places like Saint Thomas Church in New York to tell you that it's a very rare treble that can project well at all; and for most pieces the trebles all sing the same thing.

But even taking that away, we have to remember that Libera usually has multipart harmonies and you have a recipe for disaster in terms of the sound coming through properly, because there are only maybe 4-6 boys singing a certain part. As others have said, not all parts are capable of being projected (softer parts, whispers, etc). Without amplification we'd limit their repertoire severely.

So comparing them with WSK where nearly all songs have them singing the same thing and with 1 piano to accompany just isn't fair. WSK sing loud, but they're not singing soft subtle pieces over an orchestra in multi-part harmonies. It's not an apples to apples comparison. If Libera was singing WSK's repertoire with a single piano, no doubt there would be no need for amplification. They aren't amplified for church services they lead at their own church, or when they lead services at other churches, and they sound perfectly fine. But in those cases they are singing either liturgical repertoire, or a carefully chosen Libera song which may not need the equipment to sound its best.

What's more, the earpiece microphones that they have also allow Sam to give them instructions from the mixing board and to have a click track in their ears so that they stay on time and pace. They wouldn't be Libera without it!

[Yorkie]

Well, you certainly explained one of the main reasons, but I think there are other factors too. There are Libera songs where the effect of softer singing being amplified is important. I know they recently sang "I am the Day", and I can't imagine them doing it properly without any microphones. I also couldn't imagine the opening solo part of "The Prayer" being done without the microphones, without the singer having to sing it too forcefully. There are certain songs or sections of songs where the microphones are probably less prominent, but this gives them the freedom to create a certain effect/atmosphere for each song. I guess the biggest takeaway is that the microphones allow Libera to achieve certain things sonically that wouldn't be possible otherwise. This unique experience is what sets them apart from traditional choral concerts.

Agree 100% with your answer (Celtic made a good point too).

Robert chose the name of the group to be 'Free' and part of that was to be free from the rules of how classical music should be performed. Using mics and amplification allows for a whole new sound to be created that is unique to Libera.

If people want to listen to tradition choirs singing in traditional ways (and I certainly very much enjoy that) then you can go to a Cathedral and hear Evensong or Eucharist & listen to some incredible musicians.

But Libera is something different and makes their own rules after their own style and that's why we love them.

[Yorkie]

However, touring groups from the Vienna Boys Choir perform acoustic concerts in large venues regularly. Here's the Vienna Boys Choir at the Chicago Symphony in November 2023 with nary a microphone in sight.

Granted, the touring singers are usually 12 or 13 and have reached max treble volume.

Except in those groups all the boys are pretty much singing the same thing or at most have a two-part harmony. They also only have a piano rather than a small orchestra.

I remember attending a choral concert where an orchestra was playing and even when all of the treble and lower voices were singing the same thing the volume level was definitely not particularly high even in the acoustically resonant church I was in (St Paul's Harvard Square). The recording they put out later to those who paid for it, mixed the voices up a lot louder. As was already stated, young boys are not exactly known for their ability to project well. I've heard enough treble solos during church services at places like Saint Thomas Church in New York to tell you that it's a very rare treble that can project well at all; and for most pieces the trebles all sing the same thing.

But even taking that away, we have to remember that Libera usually has multipart harmonies and you have a recipe for disaster in terms of the sound coming through properly, because there are only maybe 4-6 boys singing a certain part. As others have said, not all parts are capable of being projected (softer parts, whispers, etc). Without amplification we'd limit their repertoire severely.

So comparing them with WSK where nearly all songs have them singing the same thing and with 1 piano to accompany just isn't fair. WSK sing loud, but they're not singing soft subtle pieces over an orchestra in multi-part harmonies. It's not an apples to apples comparison. If Libera was singing WSK's repertoire with a single piano, no doubt there would be no need for amplification. They aren't amplified for church services they lead at their own church, or when they lead services at other churches, and they sound perfectly fine. But in those cases they are singing either liturgical repertoire, or a carefully chosen Libera song which may not need the equipment to sound its best.

What's more, the earpiece microphones that they have also allow Sam to give them instructions from the mixing board and to have a click track in their ears so that they stay on time and pace. They wouldn't be Libera without it!

I'm shocked that anybody would compare the performing circus that is the choir(s) of WSK with the glory that is Libera

Seriously though WSK do their own thing and it works for them. Why would Libera want to be the same?