To stray back on topic, here's Sean Holshouser doing Walking in the Air. He recorded the audio in a studio and did a lip-synced video with his dad on piano, so he could enjoy expressing his acting talents!
For me the point you know whether treble is going to nail this song is when they sing the word "blue" in the fifth line.
"Walking In The Air"
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Re: "Walking In The Air"
I must not be explaining myself very well. I hate listening to people who sing with a lot of vibrato whether they are boy, girl, man or woman. Opera requires it and indeed seems to get off on it, hence my aversion to Opera.j8000 wrote:I think we are in agreement that there is certainly a difference in style between opera and cathedral choirs.
What I disagree with is putting boys in boxes and labelling them as "boy sopranos" or "trebles" as if the terms weren't interchangeable. Aksel for example was trained as a chorister and is perfectly capable of singing in that style as well as performing in operas. Labelling boys as one or the other isn't very constructive. However using the terms to refer to whichever style they happen to be singing in at the time is fine I guess.
Women can also sing in the choral style, although it can takes a lot of concentration to avoid the vibrato. For example here is Caroline Ashton singing the treble solo in the Miserere:
In Britain, with reference to boy or girl singers, Treble is an expression that normally denotes a group of boys/girls singing & Soprano often an individual singing on their own (boy/girl Soprano). This is why I used the term 'Operatic Soprano' in my original post to make my meaning clear - a solo boy singer using (to my ear and liking) excessive vibrato & colour.
Aksel clearly can sing in either style on the basis of the video posted in this thread. To bring me back full circle I found this surprising because his CD was start to finish operatic in style. I would have much preferred it if it wasn't.
If I’ve got owt to say I says it, and if I’ve got owt to ask I asks it.
Mercy & Love
Mercy & Love
Re: "Walking In The Air"
I get you don't like opera singing.Yorkie wrote:I must not be explaining myself very well. I hate listening to people who sing with a lot of vibrato whether they are boy, girl, man or woman. Opera requires it and indeed seems to get off on it, hence my aversion to Opera.j8000 wrote:I think we are in agreement that there is certainly a difference in style between opera and cathedral choirs.
What I disagree with is putting boys in boxes and labelling them as "boy sopranos" or "trebles" as if the terms weren't interchangeable. Aksel for example was trained as a chorister and is perfectly capable of singing in that style as well as performing in operas. Labelling boys as one or the other isn't very constructive. However using the terms to refer to whichever style they happen to be singing in at the time is fine I guess.
Women can also sing in the choral style, although it can takes a lot of concentration to avoid the vibrato. For example here is Caroline Ashton singing the treble solo in the Miserere:
In Britain, with reference to boy or girl singers, Treble is an expression that normally denotes a group of boys/girls singing & Soprano often an individual singing on their own (boy/girl Soprano). This is why I used the term 'Operatic Soprano' in my original post to make my meaning clear - a solo boy singer using (to my ear and liking) excessive vibrato & colour.
Aksel clearly can sing in either style on the basis of the video posted in this thread. To bring me back full circle I found this surprising because his CD was start to finish operatic in style. I would have much preferred it if it wasn't.
You will however, find "trebles" singing opera. For example New College Oxford have some Handel recordings with boy soloists described as "trebles" - simply because that's what these choirs call their boys, it's nothing to do with the style of singing. It just so happens they don't normally sing operatic pieces. You will often find operatic parts labelled as being for trebles. It's just a matter of what term people are used to.
Re: "Walking In The Air"
I'm really no longer sure what you are arguing with me about. Have I ever said that a Cathedral Chorister can't sing in an opera or that a boy from WSK can't sing Stanford in G?j8000 wrote:
I get you don't like opera singing.
You will however, find "trebles" singing opera. For example New College Oxford have some Handel recordings with boy soloists described as "trebles" - simply because that's what these choirs call their boys, it's nothing to do with the style of singing. It just so happens they don't normally sing operatic pieces. You will often find operatic parts labelled as being for trebles. It's just a matter of what term people are used to.
In my first post I used the term 'Operatic Soprano' using the '' to try and clarify that this was my description of the style I found the CD to be sung in. I wasn't trying to invent a new theory on prepubescent singing voices.
##Edit## actually I've gone back and it is my second post that has caused the confusion, my apology. My intention was to say there is a huge difference between a Soprano singing in an Opera style and a Treble singing in a choir style - that wasn't what I said (but it is what I meant) hence me setting you off on your posts & confusing myself!
If I’ve got owt to say I says it, and if I’ve got owt to ask I asks it.
Mercy & Love
Mercy & Love
Re: "Walking In The Air"
No worries, sorry if I didn't quite get you.
Going back to he original question - what's the difference between a treble and a boy soprano. From one perspective they are the same - boys who can sing the high parts. Whether they get labelled as trebles or boy sopranos varies depending not just on what kind of singing they are doing, but on who is doing the labelling. English choir masters for example will likely call them trebles, even if they go and sing in operas. American stage directors might not even know what a treble is.
Going back to he original question - what's the difference between a treble and a boy soprano. From one perspective they are the same - boys who can sing the high parts. Whether they get labelled as trebles or boy sopranos varies depending not just on what kind of singing they are doing, but on who is doing the labelling. English choir masters for example will likely call them trebles, even if they go and sing in operas. American stage directors might not even know what a treble is.
Re: "Walking In The Air"
Here's an interesting article. http://www.shirlee-emmons.com/vibrato.html Of particular interest to Yorkie might be the sentence "Those who are most critical of the vibrato are generally those with very sharp ears for pitch discrimination. To those, a vibrato that is too slow or too wide is undesirable because the two notes cannot blend into one".
There was a reason for the development of different vocal styles for Cathedral and Operatic singing and also for the young and the old.
Opera singing has to be projected and loud enough to be heard over the orchestra and at the back of a large concert hall. Prolonged forceful singing of pure tones is damaging to the vocal cords. Don't ask me how, but it is generally agreed that a vibrato technique reduces the risk of vocal cord damage. Many Opera singers are able to continue their careers into their sixties which would probably not be possible without the use of vibrato.
Cathedral acoustics, with pronounced echo, do not require high sound volume, but make the words less easy to distinguish - hence the rolled Rs and overemphasis of Ts etc. The boy treble/soprano's voice has a life span of about 5 years if he's lucky, and pure tone singing for such a period is unlikely to cause permanent damage.
Of course, all these problems could be overcome with the use of microphones. Heresy to some, but fortunately not to Libera.
Like Yorkie, I much prefer pure tone. Bad or excessive vibrato sets my teeth on edge. I am, however, able to tolerate it in Opera, not least because of everything else that Opera has to offer: the music, the spectacle, the drama. Some of my favourite Opera passages are by the chorus - no vibrato there.
Perhaps this should be in the other active thread (Other Singers....).
There was a reason for the development of different vocal styles for Cathedral and Operatic singing and also for the young and the old.
Opera singing has to be projected and loud enough to be heard over the orchestra and at the back of a large concert hall. Prolonged forceful singing of pure tones is damaging to the vocal cords. Don't ask me how, but it is generally agreed that a vibrato technique reduces the risk of vocal cord damage. Many Opera singers are able to continue their careers into their sixties which would probably not be possible without the use of vibrato.
Cathedral acoustics, with pronounced echo, do not require high sound volume, but make the words less easy to distinguish - hence the rolled Rs and overemphasis of Ts etc. The boy treble/soprano's voice has a life span of about 5 years if he's lucky, and pure tone singing for such a period is unlikely to cause permanent damage.
Of course, all these problems could be overcome with the use of microphones. Heresy to some, but fortunately not to Libera.
Like Yorkie, I much prefer pure tone. Bad or excessive vibrato sets my teeth on edge. I am, however, able to tolerate it in Opera, not least because of everything else that Opera has to offer: the music, the spectacle, the drama. Some of my favourite Opera passages are by the chorus - no vibrato there.
Perhaps this should be in the other active thread (Other Singers....).
- filiarheni
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Re: "Walking In The Air"
For the following I had to look up many words in the dictionary and I hope that I chose the technically correct English expressions to make myself understood.
I don't intend to persuade (not: convince) you, Yorkie, of something you really, really don't like for reasons that you have cleared for yourself. However, I found the word "hate" very hard. Does it really feel that bad to you? There is a wide range of completely different music inside the genre opera and also within one single opera. My favourite operas are “Don Giovanni†and the two mentioned “Manon Lescaut†(Puccini, Auber), but even in all three of them there are also some passages which I like less or even don’t like. And the singers are so different.
I just would like to ask you to stay open, because there are so many different musical pieces, and I cannot imagine that there is absolutely nothing that could meet your taste. Yes, I know that it is the vibrato you do not like at all. But maybe sometimes it's just a question of finding an interpretation that you like and not the music itself is the problem.
One has to play or sing music in different ways depending on epoch and genre. There are different styles of singing. The romantic art song accompanied by piano is sung using another technique than the orchestrated art song later, or: You sing a Schubert song in a different way from how you would sing a Wagner song. This is why I recommended the baroque period to you. There are a lot of discussions if there should be a vibrato, only a slight vibrato or none at all in baroque music. But I agree with the opinion that baroque music should be sung with a much more “slender†voice, the music is too delicate for a big voice, a strong, dramatic vibrato. If you are sure that you don't like opera, but nevertheless are prepared to test an approach, then you could look for something of that period. Sometimes you have to dig for a long time until you find an interpretation that you like.
I do not like a very strong vibrato either. But a slight, unobtrusive vibrato is a pleasure for me. (I do like Cantus Cölln very much, they perform baroque music, but no baroque operas.)
I don't think that it is the vibrato itself that keeps a voice in health. The way how it is produced is what matters. The body must be relaxed, then the voice swings freely, the tone is floating above the breath, and this causes a natural vibrato and not a trembling or shaking of the voice which is no vibrato. The voice stays healthy if you let it flow freely. Pressure and forcing are dangerous for the voice. I like the flexibility, the naturalness of the singing voice. A pressed, forced or wobbling vibrato is horrible, that's true; I would never defend that! But a natural, authentical, fine vibrato by an adult singer or an older boy can be so beautiful.
Yorkie: I'm particularly curious if you like Ben Crawley's singing in general? I do, in fact, like his very unostentatious vibrato. To me, it sounds natural beyond all doubt, and at the same time you hear that it is a boy’s voice. His voice and his vibrato fit together perfectly in my ears.
I do not like children singing like adults. They sometimes are able to do that in a mere technical way. But they don't own the mental and emotional maturity yet. I for myself cannot bridge this gap when I listen to a younger child that has the technique of an adult. Close your eyes and you hear an adult, open them and you see a child - no! I don't like that at all. And this is one of the reasons I LOVE Libera and prefer the Libera soloists to nearly every other boy I have heard so far. They sing in a completely natural way which is different from so many (all?) other boys choirs. This does not exclude a Ben-Crawley-like vibrato which is the most beautiful boy's vibrato I have ever heard (glad that it was him to be a member of Libera ).
And: I have always admired the gentle and protecting way of singing by the Libera boys. This is a characteristic which already was very obvious and striking for me when I listened to Libera and watched them on youtube at my very beginning last year.
This thread has pretty much moved off-topic, but it doesn't bother me, because I find it very interesting that the meaning of the two words does not seem as clear as I thought and it is alright with me also that it started an opera/vibrato discussion. In German, we don't have that difference between soprano and treble, we just say soprano and mean the range and the voice's colour. So a female singer who is able to sing very high might rather be a mezzo just because of the voice's sound.
And the opera issue is mixed within the two threads but I don’t have a solution for this. Or maybe I should change or extend the subject line of this thread but I have no idea how to do that.
I don't intend to persuade (not: convince) you, Yorkie, of something you really, really don't like for reasons that you have cleared for yourself. However, I found the word "hate" very hard. Does it really feel that bad to you? There is a wide range of completely different music inside the genre opera and also within one single opera. My favourite operas are “Don Giovanni†and the two mentioned “Manon Lescaut†(Puccini, Auber), but even in all three of them there are also some passages which I like less or even don’t like. And the singers are so different.
I just would like to ask you to stay open, because there are so many different musical pieces, and I cannot imagine that there is absolutely nothing that could meet your taste. Yes, I know that it is the vibrato you do not like at all. But maybe sometimes it's just a question of finding an interpretation that you like and not the music itself is the problem.
One has to play or sing music in different ways depending on epoch and genre. There are different styles of singing. The romantic art song accompanied by piano is sung using another technique than the orchestrated art song later, or: You sing a Schubert song in a different way from how you would sing a Wagner song. This is why I recommended the baroque period to you. There are a lot of discussions if there should be a vibrato, only a slight vibrato or none at all in baroque music. But I agree with the opinion that baroque music should be sung with a much more “slender†voice, the music is too delicate for a big voice, a strong, dramatic vibrato. If you are sure that you don't like opera, but nevertheless are prepared to test an approach, then you could look for something of that period. Sometimes you have to dig for a long time until you find an interpretation that you like.
I do not like a very strong vibrato either. But a slight, unobtrusive vibrato is a pleasure for me. (I do like Cantus Cölln very much, they perform baroque music, but no baroque operas.)
I don't think that it is the vibrato itself that keeps a voice in health. The way how it is produced is what matters. The body must be relaxed, then the voice swings freely, the tone is floating above the breath, and this causes a natural vibrato and not a trembling or shaking of the voice which is no vibrato. The voice stays healthy if you let it flow freely. Pressure and forcing are dangerous for the voice. I like the flexibility, the naturalness of the singing voice. A pressed, forced or wobbling vibrato is horrible, that's true; I would never defend that! But a natural, authentical, fine vibrato by an adult singer or an older boy can be so beautiful.
Yorkie: I'm particularly curious if you like Ben Crawley's singing in general? I do, in fact, like his very unostentatious vibrato. To me, it sounds natural beyond all doubt, and at the same time you hear that it is a boy’s voice. His voice and his vibrato fit together perfectly in my ears.
I do not like children singing like adults. They sometimes are able to do that in a mere technical way. But they don't own the mental and emotional maturity yet. I for myself cannot bridge this gap when I listen to a younger child that has the technique of an adult. Close your eyes and you hear an adult, open them and you see a child - no! I don't like that at all. And this is one of the reasons I LOVE Libera and prefer the Libera soloists to nearly every other boy I have heard so far. They sing in a completely natural way which is different from so many (all?) other boys choirs. This does not exclude a Ben-Crawley-like vibrato which is the most beautiful boy's vibrato I have ever heard (glad that it was him to be a member of Libera ).
And: I have always admired the gentle and protecting way of singing by the Libera boys. This is a characteristic which already was very obvious and striking for me when I listened to Libera and watched them on youtube at my very beginning last year.
This thread has pretty much moved off-topic, but it doesn't bother me, because I find it very interesting that the meaning of the two words does not seem as clear as I thought and it is alright with me also that it started an opera/vibrato discussion. In German, we don't have that difference between soprano and treble, we just say soprano and mean the range and the voice's colour. So a female singer who is able to sing very high might rather be a mezzo just because of the voice's sound.
And the opera issue is mixed within the two threads but I don’t have a solution for this. Or maybe I should change or extend the subject line of this thread but I have no idea how to do that.
"But in the dark and cold of things there always, always something sings"
- TimS_TheToolman
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Re: "Walking In The Air"
I guess I'm getting behind here, not keeping up with postings.Yorkie wrote:He had an unusually powerful voice for a 9 year old and he turned out some remarkable performances, but I'm not sure his power is suited to this particular songTimS_TheToolman wrote:I ran across this version which I found to be very interesting. If I'm correct, it was recorded in 2001 by a young Declan Galbraith. The depth and power of his voice is impressive for a 9 year old.
@Yorkie, I agree, his vocal interpretation of this song is to bold.
Also, if I may wade into the discussion of trebles and sopranos. The only music education I had was 4 years in High School in Chorus as an accredited elective class. I had 2 very good music instructors from whom I learned to read and sing. Which of course doesn't really make me any kind of an expert. In that instruction my understanding of soprano, alto, tenor, bass was a matter of musical scale which defined each part. Therefore, boy sopranos and boy trebles are pretty much in the same scale. Although, IMBO, I think the treble voice can actually reach higher the soprano. I saw an interview on YouTube some time ago with Mr. Prizeman, where he made the comment that the upper registers these boys can reach is amazing. (I don't remember where I saw it, you'll have to google it I guess) Alex M drove that home when he was pitted against a famous female Korean pop singer on a Korean TV variety show they appeared on when in Korea for their 2016 spring tour. She couldn't match him. But, honestly, they don't sing that high.
Sadly, I'm not so good at it any more. My ears and voice are shot and, as the ol' saying goes, "use it or lose it."
Having said all of that, I don't mean to start any kind of a debate, just throwing in my 2 cents. As I mentioned earlier, my opinion is biased.
@Yorkie, I stand with you concerning Opera.
Re: "Walking In The Air"
Hi filiarheni
Thanks for a very interesting post. Perfect English by the way! Like you, I am not trying to persuade Yorkie to change his opinion about Opera. I would just like to be sure he has given it a fair chance. Until my mid-forties, my own impression of Opera was that it consisted mainly of Brunhilda like sopranos shrieking and squeaking in fifty different sharps and flats like the rats of Hamelin. What persuaded me to give it a chance? It was the 1990 World Cup theme that piqued my interest. Soon afterwards I went to a very lavish production of Turandot at the Met and have been hooked ever since. Yes, not all Opera is to my taste and there can be boring bits in good Opera but the good generally outweighs the bad.
I will be interested to see Yorkie's response to your observation about Ben C. His gentle vibrato is so unobtrusive and natural that it didn't really register with me until you drew attention to it. I have to agree it is very pleasant and adds warmth to his voice.
Thanks again.
Thanks for a very interesting post. Perfect English by the way! Like you, I am not trying to persuade Yorkie to change his opinion about Opera. I would just like to be sure he has given it a fair chance. Until my mid-forties, my own impression of Opera was that it consisted mainly of Brunhilda like sopranos shrieking and squeaking in fifty different sharps and flats like the rats of Hamelin. What persuaded me to give it a chance? It was the 1990 World Cup theme that piqued my interest. Soon afterwards I went to a very lavish production of Turandot at the Met and have been hooked ever since. Yes, not all Opera is to my taste and there can be boring bits in good Opera but the good generally outweighs the bad.
I will be interested to see Yorkie's response to your observation about Ben C. His gentle vibrato is so unobtrusive and natural that it didn't really register with me until you drew attention to it. I have to agree it is very pleasant and adds warmth to his voice.
Thanks again.