Libera to tour USA - Summer 2017

[Surpinto]

I think it is going to happen for you this time Surpinto I'm genuinely pleased for you. And who knows what will happen over and above a concert or two? Wonder where it will be...

I really hope so, thank you! It would be cool if it was close enough by that I could drive there (even if it was a long drive) without the hassle of flying. When they cancelled the DC concert in 2015 I considered flying to San Antonio but it was too last minute and expensive and there were other logistical difficulties. Even if this tour is far away, I would at least have the time to sort out travel plans.

The sooner they announce the cities and venues the better.

[TullyBascombe]

If they've announced the tour already then surely they must have the venues arranged?

[bachmahlerfan]

By the way, I found the comment on Youtube that I couldn't find before regarding visa costs, and it's with the Salve Regina video (as released by Libera Official). The user Robert Shaw III stated that entry visas for the group would cost around 15,000 dollars (he was replying to a comment by ThisIsTurok1). He seems to have inside knowledge of the situation, but I don't know for sure.

[Surpinto]

By the way, I found the comment on Youtube that I couldn't find before regarding visa costs, and it's with the Salve Regina video (as released by Libera Official). The user Robert Shaw III stated that entry visas for the group would cost around 15,000 dollars (he was replying to a comment by ThisIsTurok1). He seems to have inside knowledge of the situation, but I don't know for sure.

I do not believe that there is any inside knowledge, these fees can be found online. I tried to look them all up and became completely confused by the different requirements and forms. It appears that they first have to file a petition ($426 single fee for the group as a whole) followed by an entertainer visa application (P-1B) for each member ($325 per person). Given that the Libera entourage includes roughly 30 choristers and about 10 adults that would be $13,426.

I could be a bit off base on this as there are separate applications (and possible fee schedules) for "support personnel" accompanying a qualified entertainer. But it would appear that the $15,000 number is approximately the true cost. They probably have a paid agent who handles this paperwork on their behalf; which incurs additional cost.

It is extremely confusing. Probably even more so considering that choristers themselves are minors and this creates additional bureaucratic burden.

What kind of ridiculously unfair and absurdly expensive system is this for groups seeking to visit the United States?!

[john45]

$15,000.00 was the figure quoted by a Libera official as the cost of visas alone. This was on one of the earlier US tours where admission was free but donations in the form of a retiring collection were gratefully accepted.

[bachmahlerfan]

Thanks for the clarifications. Now that the performer visas went from 325 to 460 dollars per person, the actual estimated cost may be higher.

[JimmyRiddle]

Well I hope they manage to raise the necessary funds to allow them to tour the US. It's one of their favourite places to travel too, and for some it will be their first experience of America. In my view, they would qualify for (VWP) Visa Waiver Program, but it's very tricky to meet all the requirements.
[quote]Entertainers who are normally compensated for performing are not classified as amateurs and thus will be unable to travel to the US under the VWP to perform, even if they have agreed to perform in the US for free at a charity or private members event and do not solely make a living by performing.[/quote]
http://www.m-magazine.co.uk/creators/ad ... veling-us/

I suppose if they could find a way of funding the costs to hire the venues and not selling tickets would that be classed as criteria for not having to pay for visa's? In an ideal world there would be an exemption for travelling choirs of 'school age' (under 16) children. It doesn't make sense to put them through the same travelling constraints which apply to professionally paid adult musicians who make a career living from their talents.

[TygrHawk]

I have cause to believe they have selected some venues, but are considering more. But I cannot confirm that.

[TullyBascombe]

Entertainers who are normally compensated for performing are not classified as amateurs and thus will be unable to travel to the US under the VWP to perform, even if they have agreed to perform in the US for free at a charity or private members event and do not solely make a living by performing.

Has Libera ever been compensated for performing other than paying their costs? Charging for admission is not the same as compensating the performers.
So what if they choose to perform at churches? I doubt the US government is going to make them pay a large professional fee to sing at a couple of churches.

[Surpinto]

Entertainers who are normally compensated for performing are not classified as amateurs and thus will be unable to travel to the US under the VWP to perform, even if they have agreed to perform in the US for free at a charity or private members event and do not solely make a living by performing.

Has Libera ever been compensated for performing other than paying their costs? Charging for admission is not the same as compensating the performers.
So what if they choose to perform at churches? I doubt the US government is going to make them pay a large professional fee to sing at a couple of churches.

Ok, here is the long and detailed explanation

The US seems to be draconian when it comes to things like this. Though non-profit, Libera are technically being compensated, by tickets sales, for their performances. How the compensation is doled out to the group and group members, whether or not the compensation covers expenses, and whether the group generates a profit on the tour, is likely one of those things that is beyond the scope of the legislation governing this matter.

Sadly, I don't think that the US government cares one iota that the tickets sale compensation is insufficient to cover their expenses or that Libera is a registered non-profit. If anything, on paper, this would appear to be a promotional tour for a commercial music recording (the "Hope" album) and that does not help their cause. Again, it doesn't matter, from the point of view of the legislation, that the royalties Libera receives on the album or tickets sales go to providing a free musical education to children. This simply is not something the legislation allows the visa agency to examine when making a determination.

Even though they are a registered UK charity, this also something that the legislation probably did not account for and which is beyond its scope. It's one of those legal technicalities that can only be fixed by law makers in Congress and good luck getting them to do anything at the moment.

So why such a weird law? When the legislation governing such things was written it appears to have been done to prevent foreign competition to established entertainment groups and to prevent such foreign competition from being used to break labor strikes by the labor unions representing performance artists. Interestingly, the application requires (if applicable) affirmative approval by the labor union representing a category of entertainment workers whose work the foreign visitors are technically performing. This makes sense because a certain union may have negotiated favorable compensation for such work and the foreign entertainer is the beneficiary. Thus, the foreign entertainer may have to shell out a union fee to the labor union for bargaining these favorable rules/wages on their behalf and for resolving any labor disputes should they arise while on tour.

Though I am certain that Libera does not require this particular approval

So fees appear to be a sort of tariff on foreign entertainers in true protectionist fashion. Such broad and sweeping statutes, though usually well intentioned, have dire, and often unintended, consequences for groups like Libera who are certainly not competing with American entertainers.....and certainly not being used as replacement workers (scabs) to break labor strikes

Additionally, while there is a religious worker visa (i.e. the Church-only option TullyBascombe suggested), the requirements are that the person(s) are employed as a minister at least 20 hours per week. So that does not apply to Libera at all.

Sorry for such a long post, I didn't know how else to explain this complicated system and Libera's unfortunate status in having to shell out a huge amount of money to tour the US.

[JimmyRiddle]

Sorry for such a long post, I didn't know how else to explain this complicated system and Libera's unfortunate status in having to shell out a huge amount of money to tour the US.

Well thanks for the detailed summary Surpinto.. It's okay I never thought it would be easy as 1+1=2 and it's still frustrating that Libera falls between two stools when it comes to paying out for VISA's and not having to do so. I take it other groups that tour the US such as King's College/ St. John's are under the same financial burden when it comes to the VISA situation?

[TygrHawk]

Sometimes I am so ashamed of my country.

[Surpinto]

Sorry for such a long post, I didn't know how else to explain this complicated system and Libera's unfortunate status in having to shell out a huge amount of money to tour the US.

Well thanks for the detailed summary Surpinto.. It's okay I never thought it would be easy as 1+1=2 and it's still frustrating that Libera falls between two stools when it comes to paying out for VISA's and not having to do so. I take it other groups that tour the US such as King's College/ St. John's are under the same financial burden when it comes to the VISA situation?

Sure thing. And yes, other, similar choirs are presumably under the same status. You can find what would appear to be the official, exhaustive list of US temporary visas on the website of the US Department of State.

Sometimes I am so ashamed of my country.

I feel you on this one. I feel as though there should be exemptions for groups like Libera which are not-for-profit. But I understand the barriers this would create legally because the definition of a non-profit varies from country to country.

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Anyway, to keep this thread on topic , here are my estimates for the cost breakdowns using a conservative estimate for a 14 day tour:

• Visa's/Entrance Fees - $15,000 (as calculated in the post above)
• Air Travel to the US and back - $50,000 (assumed 40 people at $1.2k per flight, as that will vary depending on where they go)
• Hotels - $45,000 (assuming 20 double-booked rooms at $150 per night per room)
• Food - $25,000 (using the GSA rates which estimates $50 per day per person. Usually the number is higher but since most of the group are young children this is a reasonable value.)
• Travel within the US - $50,000 (this is the most difficult to estimate and could vary widely based on the tour details and whether or not they include domestic flights, a rented bus and driver, or both. I estimated with 2 domestic flights at $500 per person and a rented coach bus. This estimate the most inaccurate I have.)

That's $185,000 but does not include sundry expenses such as museums or other activities for the boys. So let's just make it $200,000. I know that this is a quick estimate in which costs of a particular category could be higher or lower but I think it's not an unreasonable approximate value.

Even if they performed 4 concerts on this tour, with 1,000 attendees at each with tickets costing $20 each, that would only add to $80,000.....and those are outrageously optimistic attendance figures. As much as we Libera Dreams participants love their music, let's be brutally honest, how popular are they in the US really? Are they popular enough for tickets to sell for more than $20 for a non-premium seat? I would say not.

If they perform at a venue, even a Church (unless it's a church service), and charge for tickets, they will likely have to pay a portion of the proceeds, maybe even most, to the venue.

This all explains why they need fundraising help via the US affiliate. I'll be donating before months end and encourage others to do the same.

[TullyBascombe]

Sometimes I am so ashamed of my country.

It's a simple equation: one part Homeland Security, one part Tea Party, one part Make America Great.

[tom413]

Thanks for the exhaustive review of the visa process Surpinto. I've never seen it explained in such detail.
I do wonder if Libera's status as a registered US charity changes the equation any or just makes it easier to raise funds in America.
The $15k visa figure was quoted in concerts before that registration occurred.

Your estimated budget was an intersting read interesting as well. It's probably safe to assume that breakfast is included in the room tab, so your food numbers
could be a bit high, but that cost would probably be offset in the flight expense if they come to the westerm half of the country. Pricing a flight from London to Dallas and a return from San Francisco back to London between July 28 and August 11 (which should be pretty close to expected dates for a summer tour) comes in at $1282 currently. Libera might catch a break on airfare by buying in bulk, but this may well be offset by buying late. Most details for these trips aren't secured with enough lead time to secure the best possible pricing - for fan or chorister alike.

On the income side of the equation, their ability to draw people to concerts in the US has varied wildly, but it is not unreasonable to expect 1000 people if the right locations are able to be scheduled. I have been to all but two of the US concerts. Based on past performance, drawing 1000 or more paying customers would be difficult to do in the East. Apart from the DVD filming in Washington DC, I can't think of one US show in the Eastern time zone that had that kind of draw. They did much better attracting audience support in St. Louis, Texas and California.

I am hopeful that Libera will be able to find the funding to make this tour possible. The North American fan base should have the opportunity to show its support without having to cross an ocean.