Libera Dreams

kthomp wrote:britain consists of England, Scotland and wales

where as the UK is England, northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales

Hmmm. I thought that Britain consisted of England and Wales, and Great Britain was England, Wales and Scotland. Have I been wrong all these years????

Rich

Rich wrote:

kthomp wrote:britain consists of England, Scotland and wales

where as the UK is England, northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales

Hmmm. I thought that Britain consisted of England and Wales, and Great Britain was England, Wales and Scotland. Have I been wrong all these years????

Rich

See the website I posted the link to

Whew! Thanks, Yorkie!

no rich you are right .. in theory britain is only england and wales but i think as great britan as a phrase isnt used much Britan has taken in scotland aswell

Usage changes over time. Only the most pedantic would say Britain meaning England & Wales - everybody says Britain meaning Great Britain.

We don't feel too comfortable with the great part since you bankrupted us during WWII and removed our superpower status

Yorkie wrote:Only the most pedantic would say Britain meaning England & Wales - everybody says Britain meaning Great Britain.

Well, it was a Yeoman Warder at the Tower of London who gave me those definitions many, many years ago.

Rich wrote:

kthomp wrote:britain consists of England, Scotland and wales

where as the UK is England, northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales

Hmmm. I thought that Britain consisted of England and Wales, and Great Britain was England, Wales and Scotland. Have I been wrong all these years????

Rich

let me toss my $.02 in on this (even though it's not needed )

Largest to smallest...

The British Isles: geographic term
This refers to the archipelago of islands north of France: the smaller island of Eireann (Ireland) and the larger of Great Britain--as well as the Isle of Man, Isle of Wight, Channel Islands, Orkney, Shetland, and the Isles of Sicily.

United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland: political term
The nation that encompasses ALL of Great Britain (the big island) and the top fourth of Ireland, as well as the Channel Islands, Orkney, Shetland, Isle of Wight, and the Isles of Sicily. The Isle of Man is...unique--not technically part of the UK (according to the OS, anyway).

Great Britain: political and geographic name
"Great" Britain has been so-called since the Norman conquest to distinguish the large island from "lesser" Britain (Brittany), in present-day France. Remember that the Dukes of Normandy were also Kings of England post-1066--their holdings in France were "lesser" or "smaller" Britain. "Great" Britain is so-called because great ("magna" in Latin) simply indicated its superior size.

Great Britain as a political entity is the union of the Kingdoms of England, Scotland, and Wales. James I of England (VI of Scotland)--he of the King James Bible--was the first monarch to call himself "King of Great Britain" in 1604. He specifically asked Parliament for an inclusive term that would include both his homeland (Scotland) and his seat of power (England).

England, Scotland, and Wales:
The three nations that inhabit Great Britain. England is the largest and by far the most populous, but Scotland and Wales each have unique cultures--Scotland, in particular, has traditionally been aligned with France for political reasons. The 1707 Act of Union united England and Scotland (Wales has long been aligned with England--since the 1200s or so), but did not abolish them as unique nations...a bit like the states of the United States.

The Union Flag is a good symbol of the overlapping political identities of the nation (hence the name, "Union Flag" lol):



* England: the large + shaped red cross: the Cross of St George.
* Scotland: the white x on a field of blue: the Cross of St Andrew
* Ireland: the uneven diagonal red lines within the white bars of the St Andrew's Cross: the Cross of St Patrick (and a good way to tell if an artist hand-drawing the flag is really familiar with how it looks).

Wales is not represented on the Union Flag--but there are some ideas to address that:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... oberts.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... _Wales.png

If you'd like to know more--WAY more--about the idea of "Britishness" and how the British identity relates to the "four nations", check out Norman Davies's The Isles.

Printable sheet:
http://www.anglotopia.net/wp-content/up" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... f16fad.jpg

After having a doctoral student in American history inform me he "didn't give a thin damn" about the differences between England, Britain, and the UK, I made three dozen copies of this sheet and now pass them out whenever these questions arise in discussion

Thanks everybody for your answers.

Rich wrote:

Yorkie wrote:Only the most pedantic would say Britain meaning England & Wales - everybody says Britain meaning Great Britain.

Well, it was a Yeoman Warder at the Tower of London who gave me those definitions many, many years ago.

Sorry, didn't mean to infer you were a pedant! Just that your 'man on the Clapham omnibus' (to use an interesting term for an ordinary person in the UK) would say Britain meaning England, Scotland & Wales. At least everybody I know of would

kjackson83 wrote:

Rich wrote:

kthomp wrote:britain consists of England, Scotland and wales

where as the UK is England, northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales

Hmmm. I thought that Britain consisted of England and Wales, and Great Britain was England, Wales and Scotland. Have I been wrong all these years????

Rich

let me toss my $.02 in on this (even though it's not needed )

Largest to smallest...

The British Isles: geographic term
This refers to the archipelago of islands north of France: the smaller island of Eireann (Ireland) and the larger of Great Britain--as well as the Isle of Man, Isle of Wight, Channel Islands, Orkney, Shetland, and the Isles of Sicily.

United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland: political term
The nation that encompasses ALL of Great Britain (the big island) and the top fourth of Ireland, as well as the Channel Islands, Orkney, Shetland, Isle of Wight, and the Isles of Sicily. The Isle of Man is...unique--not technically part of the UK (according to the OS, anyway).

Great Britain: political and geographic name
"Great" Britain has been so-called since the Norman conquest to distinguish the large island from "lesser" Britain (Brittany), in present-day France. Remember that the Dukes of Normandy were also Kings of England post-1066--their holdings in France were "lesser" or "smaller" Britain. "Great" Britain is so-called because great ("magna" in Latin) simply indicated its superior size.

Great Britain as a political entity is the union of the Kingdoms of England, Scotland, and Wales. James I of England (VI of Scotland)--he of the King James Bible--was the first monarch to call himself "King of Great Britain" in 1604. He specifically asked Parliament for an inclusive term that would include both his homeland (Scotland) and his seat of power (England).

England, Scotland, and Wales:
The three nations that inhabit Great Britain. England is the largest and by far the most populous, but Scotland and Wales each have unique cultures--Scotland, in particular, has traditionally been aligned with France for political reasons. The 1707 Act of Union united England and Scotland (Wales has long been aligned with England--since the 1200s or so), but did not abolish them as unique nations...a bit like the states of the United States.

The Union Flag is a good symbol of the overlapping political identities of the nation (hence the name, "Union Flag" lol):



* England: the large + shaped red cross: the Cross of St George.
* Scotland: the white x on a field of blue: the Cross of St Andrew
* Ireland: the uneven diagonal red lines within the white bars of the St Andrew's Cross: the Cross of St Patrick (and a good way to tell if an artist hand-drawing the flag is really familiar with how it looks).

Wales is not represented on the Union Flag--but there are some ideas to address that:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... oberts.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... _Wales.png

If you'd like to know more--WAY more--about the idea of "Britishness" and how the British identity relates to the "four nations", check out Norman Davies's The Isles.

My dear, there is seemingly no end to your knowledge or talents I wonder is if we could get you a job as British ambassador to Washington!

Yorkie wrote:

Rich wrote:

Yorkie wrote:Only the most pedantic would say Britain meaning England & Wales - everybody says Britain meaning Great Britain.

Well, it was a Yeoman Warder at the Tower of London who gave me those definitions many, many years ago.

Sorry, didn't mean to infer you were a pedant! Just that your 'man on the Clapham omnibus' (to use an interesting term for an ordinary person in the UK) would say Britain meaning England, Scotland & Wales. At least everybody I know of would

No problem - I didn't take it that way.

"Man on the Clapham omnibus" - now that's one I've never heard before!

Rich

kjackson83 wrote:Wales is not represented on the Union Flag--but there are some ideas to address that:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... oberts.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... _Wales.png

If you'd like to know more--WAY more--about the idea of "Britishness" and how the British identity relates to the "four nations", check out Norman Davies's The Isles.

I prefer the second Union flag proposal. It looks way better than the first and I love dragons.

tcliffy wrote:

kjackson83 wrote:Wales is not represented on the Union Flag--but there are some ideas to address that:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... oberts.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... _Wales.png

If you'd like to know more--WAY more--about the idea of "Britishness" and how the British identity relates to the "four nations", check out Norman Davies's The Isles.

I prefer the second Union flag proposal. It looks way better than the first and I love dragons.

Me too... Changing the colors doesn't seem right, but adding the dragon seems like a excellent idea.

Oi, leave our flag alone thank you! Dragons indeed - never heard of such a horrible thing......just beastly.