Other Choirs, Singers, Musicians that you like

[paul]

This is a great piece, and one for you Yorkie!

I know your fond of Barbers Agnus dei and also, The Mormon Tabernacle Choir, so this one's for you.

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[Yorkie]

This is a great piece, and one for you Yorkie!

I know your fond of Barbers Agnus dei and also, The Mormon Tabernacle Choir, so this one's for you.

[youtube][/youtube]

So kind of you Paul I have had the misfortune to hear that &*%$ before. If you needed a reason to maintain male voice choirs surely this hideous cacophony of warbling is it.

Honestly, 500 members and none of them knows how to sing.

[Murkskis]

I do like this track...

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Thanks for posting !
I would call this one a bit erotic but it's a piece of art anyway

[Murkskis]

This is a great piece, and one for you Yorkie!

I know your fond of Barbers Agnus dei and also, The Mormon Tabernacle Choir, so this one's for you.

[youtube][/youtube]

So kind of you Paul I have had the misfortune to hear that &*%$ before. If you needed a reason to maintain male voice choirs surely this hideous cacophony of warbling is it.

Honestly, 500 members and none of them knows how to sing.

Like the comment, but I liked that 'cacophony' as well

[liberavieve]

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I'm hoping to be Enjolras when I grow up.

[Murkskis]

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I'm hoping to be Enjolras when I grow up.

Oh, Susans Boyles' song !
You'll probably know it. but it's unforgettable anyway !
[youtube][/youtube]

[maartendas]

Just coming back to this quote:

The composition of Trinity is a bit more like the American choirs in that as well as the younger boys singing the Soprano parts they have the older boys (up to 18 ) singing Alto, Tenor and Bass

At the risk of sounding like an idiot but - don't all boys choirs work that way..? Maybe I'm missing something really obvious..?

[liberavieve]

Just coming back to this quote:

The composition of Trinity is a bit more like the American choirs in that as well as the younger boys singing the Soprano parts they have the older boys (up to 18 ) singing Alto, Tenor and Bass

At the risk of sounding like an idiot but - don't all boys choirs work that way..? Maybe I'm missing something really obvious..?

It really depends on where the group is based. In British places of [Anglican] worship, there is a strong tendency toward using adult men for the ATB lines. This includes using male altos (or countertenors) who are usually employing a range outside of their modal voice in order to sustain the higher notes. In times of war, though, or otherwise in times of countertenor famine, I know that at least some Oxbridge choirs temporarily used boy altos instead of countertenors.

In collegiate chapel choirs (at Oxford and Cambridge, for instance), the altos, tenors, and basses are frequently 'choral scholars' or 'academical clerks', matriculated university students who have won a place to sing in the chapel choir. In cathedrals, the 'gentlemen of the choir' (a name given to all of the singers save the trebles) are 'vicars choral' or 'lay clerks' and are laypeople who may be professional singers and are frequently ex-choral scholars.

I'm much less familiar with continental or American choirs, but looking even just for a minute at Youtube footage of the famous German or Viennese choirs shows that they are much, much more likely to train boy altos than are their English counterparts. Part of this, I think, has to do with the labeling of these choirs as 'boy choirs' (Tölzer Knabenchor = Tölz Boys' Choir; Wiener Sängerknaben = Vienna Boys' Choir, The American Boychoir, etc.) and the selection of their repertoire to include more folk and trad works that don't necessarily demand men's voices.

There's also evolved, amongst English choirmasters, the belief that training a boy's voice beyond the very earliest stages of its mutation will permanently damage the voice and/or the vocal mechanisms. (In an interview that I can't currently find, a young Aled Jones parrots off that he'll stop singing altogether when his voice begins to change, as he doesn't want to ruin his adult voice. This certainly didn't stop the famous English boy sopranos of earlier decades— boy sopranos who were probably really altos, though their training allowed them longer access to a higher register.) I don't know when this belief really took hold or why it hasn't seemed to do so in continental choirs, but I would not be at all surprised if it's both arisen from and perpetuated the lack of boy altos in English-model choirs.

This is similar to what you'd find amongst the choristers in English cathedral or collegiate choirs: no matter the modal voice of the children, they're going to be singing the treble/soprano line almost exclusively. Perhaps split into a first and second part when pieces with the full choir call for 6- 8- 12- or more part harmonies, but always the highest parts:

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Meanwhile, this is fairly typical of continental choirs (in this case, the Vienna Boys' Choir) in which the boys regularly perform without men's voices. The lower parts are well into the alto range. To be fair, I'm not sure what the situation would be in something like a mass, but as they often put boys into alto solos, I would assume that they also have boys singing the regular alto line.

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Now, something a bit different: due to the age of its students, who enter at thirteen and leave at about eighteen, Eton's chapel choir is made up of trebles who are older than their counterparts in most English cathedrals and altos, tenors, and basses who are younger. In this recording, if you can momentarily ignore the really fantastic treble solo, you might hear the kind of youthfulness (or, if we're being dismissive, the 'schoolboy baritone') in the lower voices that you would hear in a choir of American boys.

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The American Boychoir is made up of boys from age nine to fourteen, but listening to this recording, by no means are all of the choristers singing the soprano line.

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And here, also featuring the American Boychoir, we have a boy (starting at 0:48) who has very obviously moved into what would be deemed 'men's voices' in most English choirs. A boy with a voice like his would, I think it's safe to say, never be seen still wearing a ruff in a British cathedral.

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Not sure if that illustrates any answer to the question or even what I was trying to say, but— eh, whatever. More music!

ETA: One more, this time of the Tolzers. Because of the fantastic contrast between the soprano and alto.

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[Yorkie]

Just coming back to this quote:

The composition of Trinity is a bit more like the American choirs in that as well as the younger boys singing the Soprano parts they have the older boys (up to 18 ) singing Alto, Tenor and Bass

At the risk of sounding like an idiot but - don't all boys choirs work that way..? Maybe I'm missing something really obvious..?

Well at the risk of being obvious, how many Libera songs feature Tenor or Bass voices?

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point but it sort of sounds like you are mocking me. In England it is not generally the norm for choirs to be full SATB but aged 18 or under.

Thanks to Liberavieve who explained far better and more patiently than I could (even if you backed away from our disagreement in the 'other' thread ).

[paul]

This is a great piece, and one for you Yorkie!

I know your fond of Barbers Agnus dei and also, The Mormon Tabernacle Choir, so this one's for you.

[youtube][/youtube]

So kind of you Paul I have had the misfortune to hear that &*%$ before. If you needed a reason to maintain male voice choirs surely this hideous cacophony of warbling is it.

Honestly, 500 members and none of them knows how to sing.

Apologies for my sarcasm Yorkie, yes 500 warbling twits ruining a masterpiece.

[liberavieve]

Thanks to Liberavieve who explained far better and more patiently than I could (even if you backed away from are disagreement in the 'other' thread ).

I'm honestly not sure how much discussing (as opposed to arguing) is left to be done in the Other Thread. (The Scottish Thread? ) When I'm pinning your views as being based in hegemonic and often ill-substantiated biological essentialism, and you're pinning mine as politically-correct nonsense and lefty crap, we're both resorting to thought-terminating clichés and ought to be sent back to our corners.

(Not to mention: other corners of the Internet have disturbed and upset me to the point of being sick to death of the whole topic as concerns children, and I've lately retreated to the comparative musical safety of Ella Fitzgerald and Pete Seeger.)

Anyway. I'll likely return to that thread with bells (gloves?) on, but for the moment—? I think I need to back away, lest I implode.

Well at the risk of being obvious, how many Libera songs feature Tenor or Bass voices?

This was probably meant to be rhetorical, and I'm not sure that we would count this particular song as featuring tenors per se (as opposed to alto voices on the way down), but...

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The low voices in the second voice mark this as one of my very favourite Libera songs.

[Murkskis]

Excellent post Liberavieve ! Respect & thanks !
And very beautiful Panis Angelicus cover you found
Of course I couldn't help but smile at the 'Quak' sounds

[Yorkie]

I'm honestly not sure how much discussing (as opposed to arguing) is left to be done in the Other Thread. (The Scottish Thread? ) When I'm pinning your views as being based in hegemonic and often ill-substantiated biological essentialism, and you're pinning mine as politically-correct nonsense and lefty crap, we're both resorting to thought-terminating clichés and ought to be sent back to our corners.

Well, now that is just rude. Hegemonic? No, I just know they do not sound the same to me. I have offered ill-substantiated biological essentialism? You have failed to provide any evidence that girl/boy voices sound the same.

(Not to mention: other corners of the Internet have disturbed and upset me to the point of being sick to death of the whole topic as concerns children, and I've lately retreated to the comparative musical safety of Ella Fitzgerald and Pete Seeger.)

Yet again people who disagree with you are paedophiles.

Anyway. I'll likely return to that thread with bells (gloves?) on, but for the moment—? I think I need to back away, lest I implode.

Don't bother, your mind is made up and the truth (or at least other peoples opinions that disagree with yours) will not stand in your way.

Well at the risk of being obvious, how many Libera songs feature Tenor or Bass voices?

This was probably meant to be rhetorical, and I'm not sure that we would count this particular song as featuring tenors per se (as opposed to alto voices on the way down), but...

[youtube][/youtube]

The low voices in the second voice mark this as one of my very favourite Libera songs.

It was rhetorical; Libera songs with anything lower than Alto are the exception. That song is one of my favourites also.

[maartendas]

Just coming back to this quote:

The composition of Trinity is a bit more like the American choirs in that as well as the younger boys singing the Soprano parts they have the older boys (up to 18 ) singing Alto, Tenor and Bass

At the risk of sounding like an idiot but - don't all boys choirs work that way..? Maybe I'm missing something really obvious..?

Well at the risk of being obvious, how many Libera songs feature Tenor or Bass voices?

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point but it sort of sounds like you are mocking me. In England it is not generally the norm for choirs to be full SATB but aged 18 or under.

Thanks to Liberavieve who explained far better and more patiently than I could (even if you backed away from our disagreement in the 'other' thread ).

Whoa, my apologies - no way was I mocking you - my question was sincere!
The thing is, I never realised the difference that Liberavieve described (thanks for that!) - choirs where boys also sing low parts and choirs where boys only sing soprano. Just never occurred to me, since this whole listening to (boy/male) choirs is still relatively new to me

Come to think of it though, Libera does have some songs with really low parts, like Be Still My Soul as already mentioned but also Voca Me, in the finale - at 4:23 to 4:29 I hear low voices joining the chorus - but then again they do indeed sound like adult male voices. Unless I'm going mad and what I'm hearing is something else altogether

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--edit: and Sancte, after the big turning point at 4:14:

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And Sacris Solemnis, after 2:50:

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I can definitely hear lower voices joining in. I thought this was also the specific role for the older boys whose voices have changed.

I am putting these examples to let you know where I hear lower parts but maybe you or someone else might clarify what we're actually hearing. I am really just learning so all opinions are welcome.

Sorry to be going off-topic like this though. Here's to make up for it, and to get away from all the boys for a moment:

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[Yorkie]

Whoa, my apologies - no way was I mocking you - my question was sincere!
The thing is, I never realised the difference that Liberavieve described (thanks for that!) - choirs where boys also sing low parts and choirs where boys only sing soprano. Just never occurred to me, since this whole listening to (boy/male) choirs is still relatively new to me

Come to think of it though, Libera does have some songs with really low parts, like Be Still My Soul as already mentioned but also Voca Me, in the finale - at 4:23 to 4:29 I hear low voices joining the chorus - but then again they do indeed sound like adult male voices. Unless I'm going mad and what I'm hearing is something else altogether


--edit: and Sancte, after the big turning point at 4:14:


And Sacris Solemnis, after 2:50:


I can definitely hear lower voices joining in. I thought this was also the specific role for the older boys whose voices have changed.

I am putting these examples to let you know where I hear lower parts but maybe you or someone else might clarify what we're actually hearing. I am really just learning so all opinions are welcome.

Sorry to be going off-topic like this though. Here's to make up for it, and to get away from all the boys for a moment:

OK, no harm done. Maybe it's an international difference but in the UK if you quote somebody and then use the rolling eyes emoticon, you are basically saying the other person is an idiot.

Yes, Libera do have some older songs where there are parts with lower voices (rarely lower than Alto though) but they are very much the exception. RP some time ago decided that Libera was primarily a vehicle for the unbroken boys voice, but there is a place for deeper voices within that to provide depth, colour and texture.