Libera Dreams

maartendas wrote: I wonder where you got that info as it's not true, apart from the doctrine about the bread and the wine.
Latin Mass settings are frequently sung in Anglican churches, probably even more than in Roman Catholic ones! (where the vernacular is more in use for the ordinary of the Mass).

Hi Maartendas, probably my lack of clear explanation has once again caused confusion.

Yes, I know that where there is a 'traditional' choir they will often sing pieces in Latin. My point was that in Anglican churches none of the 'service' would be in Latin (i.e. the bits spoken by the Priest). I was under the impression that in RC church's the service (mass) would be, at least in part, in Latin. I got that from a conversation with a work colleague many years ago so perhaps I mis-remembered.

maartendas wrote:Saints are also honoured - when I was in London in March I visited an Evensong in Westminster Abbey on the feast day of St. Patrick and the liturgy was based on that feast day. Also I went to St. Paul's cathedral for a sung Eucharist on the feast day of St. Joseph and the whole service was from that feast. (And we only have to think of the name of a certain Norbury parish to know that saints are a part of Anglican tradition ) The same goes for the Blessed Virgin Mary - her major feast days (like today, the Assumption) are celebrated in Anglican and Roman catholic churches alike.

I agree that the Anglican church remembers Saints but the congregation wouldn't pray to them. I understood (again perhaps wrongly) that it was common in the RC church to pray to specific Saints - that would not be normal in the CofE (although again I basing this on my childhood memories so I could be wrong). The Madonna does not have the same status in the Anglican church as she does in the RC

maartendas wrote:As for the doctrine, well, as you are probably aware, there is normally a wide gap between doctrine and the generally held belief
What I was taught during my preparation for confirmation, was this:
when the disciples saw Christ, they witnessed a man with their earthly eyes, but through the eyes of faith they saw God.
Likewise, when we see the bread and the wine, we see them with our earthly eyes as bread and wine. But with eyes of faith, we see them as the body and blood of Christ.
So this is how I was taught transsubstatiation

Well, at least I had this bit right.

Yorkie wrote:My point was that in Anglican churches none of the 'service' would be in Latin (i.e. the bits spoken by the Priest). I was under the impression that in RC church's the service (mass) would be, at least in part, in Latin. I got that from a conversation with a work colleague many years ago so perhaps I mis-remembered.

I agree that the Anglican church remembers Saints but the congregation wouldn't pray to them. I understood (again perhaps wrongly) that it was common in the RC church to pray to specific Saints - that would not be normal in the CofE (although again I basing this on my childhood memories so I could be wrong). The Madonna does not have the same status in the Anglican church as she does in the RC

Thanks for clarifying
The use of spoken Latin is very rare in Roman Catholic churches these days. From my experience: it's either a full Latin Mass with all the old-fashioned frills or no Latin at all. As for praying to saints - yes, this happens in the Roman Catholic church. I'm interested to find out about the way the Anglican church sees Mary. So thanks for pointing that out to me.

maartendas wrote: I wonder where you got that info as it's not true, apart from the doctrine about the bread and the wine.
Latin Mass settings are frequently sung in Anglican churches, probably even more than in Roman Catholic ones! (where the vernacular is more in use for the ordinary of the Mass).

Yes.

Agnus Dei (Lamb of God) is sung every Sunday at St Philips.

Usualy Ben Crawley does the main Part with the younger choir singing the harmonies

Agnus Dei, qui tolis peccatta mundi
Agnus Dei, qui tolis peccatta mundi
Qui tolis peccatta mundi

Miserere, miserere nobis,
Miserere nobis
Miserere, miserere nobis,
Miserere nobis

Agnus Dei, qui tolis peccatta mundi
Agnus Dei, qui tolis peccatta mundi
Qui tolis peccatta mundi

Dona nobis, dona nobis pacem

Agnus Dei is the last part of the Ordinary of the Mass - which is the Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus & Benedictus and Agnus Dei. These are all traditionally sung in a Mass (or Eucharist/communion service) and are all in Latin except for the Kyrie (Lord have Mercy) which is in Greek. These fixed parts of the Mass have been set to music by countless composers up to this day and age, and can be enjoyed probably more in the Church of England than in the mother church from Rome

Thanks for all the help guys!! I appreciate it!

maartendas wrote: As for the doctrine, well, as you are probably aware, there is normally a wide gap between doctrine and the generally held belief
What I was taught during my preparation for confirmation, was this:
when the disciples saw Christ, they witnessed a man with their earthly eyes, but through the eyes of faith they saw God.
Likewise, when we see the bread and the wine, we see them with our earthly eyes as bread and wine. But with eyes of faith, we see them as the body and blood of Christ.
So this is how I was taught transsubstatiation
I made a point to include this in the thread as it might help our young apprentice here on her journey through ancient, mysterious Europe

If you scrounge around and find the official Anglican doctrine regarding the bread and wine you'd find that it's broad enough to encompass Roman Catholic transubstantiation or the less literal interpretations of the Protestant faiths. That's a consistant trait of the Anglican churches since the time of Elizabeth I, they've striven to embrace both sides in the hopes of securing peace between the two sides.