Boys Choir Festival - Nuremberg - 18 June 2022

[Yorkie]

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I thought they were all good although I'm not sure I would have allowed the one with adult singers to participate (think they were Norwegian).

Hmmm, I have to disagree here. Most boys choirs consist of SATB voices, which means including men's voices for the tenor and bass parts on a regular basis. In fact, apart from the Escolanía de Montserrat there was no single other choir that evening which only had sopranos and altos, which pretty much mirrors the usual boys choir scene. The men may mostly be younger in average, but does it really matter, if the oldest ones are 25, 50 or 75 years old, as they all sing tenor and bass? So, I think that Nidarosdomens Guttekor belongs to boys choirs as rightfully as for example Poznan (if I remember the choir correctly), whose oldest members are around 40.

No, I can't agree. If it includes adult men it is not by any definition a boys choir. It is a choir of men and boys, like King's or New College (either of which the boys only could easily perform a concert on their own).

A boys choir can feature boys upto 18 but older than that and it ceases to be a boys choir. In my ignorance I thought the classic German boys choirs were just that, aged up to 18, the older boys providing the tenor and bass parts.

[Surpinto]

Have heard WSK live several times, as they always come to the US and to my city during Christmas time, the quality has varied greatly from just okay to excellent. The singing itself is never bad but the concert and song choices can be cheesy and schtiky.

It seems to depend on which of the four touring choirs is performing and at what level of development that particular group of singers is at the present moment. They had an excellent lineup of soloists (including one who sang Schubert’s “Ave Maria” very well!) and musical choices with the Brucknerchor in 2017. I didn't like every single thing they sang at that concert, but it was mostly excellent. Unfortunately, this seemed to be a one-off experience. But yes I can totally understand why hearing WSK would make one believe that all or most Austrian choirs are not worth much consideration.

The prosecution rests its case.

It very much does! Could that be the worst choir album of all time? It's certainly a contender.

I decided out of curiosity to check out what they're up to now. Turns out they've just decided to release another more pop type album.

[Yorkie]

I decided out of curiosity to check out what they're up to now. Turns out they've just decided to release another more pop type album.

First we have covid to destroy our lives and now we have a new plague to finish us off. We are truly living in the end of times.

[Celtic]

I decided out of curiosity to check out what they're up to now. Turns out they've just decided to release another more pop type album.

First we have covid to destroy our lives and now we have a new plague to finish us off. We are truly living in the end of times.

How bad could it be? *clicks the YT video*

Oh dear god NO!! Make it stop!!!

► Show Spoiler

E9lOomHXoA85YpQdd.jpg (197.3 KiB) Viewed 2178 times

E9lOomHXoA85YpQdd.jpg (197.3 KiB) Viewed 2178 times

[Surpinto]

I decided out of curiosity to check out what they're up to now. Turns out they've just decided to release another more pop type album.

First we have covid to destroy our lives and now we have a new plague to finish us off. We are truly living in the end of times.

How bad could it be? *clicks the YT video*

Oh dear god NO!! Make it stop!!!

► Show Spoiler

E9lOomHXoA85YpQdd.jpg

ROFLMAO Nice adding of the little WSK sailor cap to the 5th horseman!

[Yorkie]

First we have covid to destroy our lives and now we have a new plague to finish us off. We are truly living in the end of times.

How bad could it be? *clicks the YT video*

Oh dear god NO!! Make it stop!!!

► Show Spoiler

E9lOomHXoA85YpQdd.jpg

ROFLMAO Nice adding of the little WSK sailor cap to the 5th horseman!

[LordG]

@Celtic
BTW, there are better songs on this album

► Show Spoiler

[Yorkie]

@Celtic
BTW, there are better songs on this album

Not to my ears there isn't

[Padmachou]

I do not like to shame a choir, because the boys put effort in their work, but this is sooooo bad sorry I hope they do better stuff on stage.

[filiarheni]

​​

I thought they were all good although I'm not sure I would have allowed the one with adult singers to participate (think they were Norwegian).

Hmmm, I have to disagree here. Most boys choirs consist of SATB voices, which means including men's voices for the tenor and bass parts on a regular basis. In fact, apart from the Escolanía de Montserrat there was no single other choir that evening which only had sopranos and altos, which pretty much mirrors the usual boys choir scene. The men may mostly be younger in average, but does it really matter, if the oldest ones are 25, 50 or 75 years old, as they all sing tenor and bass? So, I think that Nidarosdomens Guttekor belongs to boys choirs as rightfully as for example Poznan (if I remember the choir correctly), whose oldest members are around 40.

No, I can't agree. If it includes adult men it is not by any definition a boys choir. It is a choir of men and boys, like King's or New College (either of which the boys only could easily perform a concert on their own).

A boys choir can feature boys upto 18 but older than that and it ceases to be a boys choir. In my ignorance I thought the classic German boys choirs were just that, aged up to 18, the older boys providing the tenor and bass parts.

​I agree with you that the label "boys choir" is, in cases like the discussed ones, inaccurate. The English choirs do much better in this regard! Some local choirs do speak of boys "and men" additionally on their website, for example the Kölner Domchor - Cologne Cathedral Choir, okay, this one doesn't contain the word "boy" at all - on the website calls it "a boys choir which is reinforced with men".
Nevertheless, such sort of choirs are known under the label "Boys Choir xy" without explicitly mentioning the men, although they always are on stage with the boys, while the focus definitely lies on the boys. Also photo galleries mostly show off the boys, so men do not come to mind as much. I actually don't find that fair, as the men's part is so important and I wish that it would always be handled as you say: "boys AND men". Certainly, in Nuremberg, everyone was aware what to expect by "boys choir", as we are just used to that incomplete expression.

But if we speak of accuracy, so it should be a "St. xy Choir of Boys and Men", where does it say how old the men are permitted to be? If they include men up to 25, something that many choirs do, why stop there? I honestly do not care about men of whatever age in a SATB male choir, as long as their voice is in very good condition - but this is a prerequisite in a top quality choir anyway. It may also be a question of timbre, if they either have only very young men up to 18, 19 or include many men who are much older. But different choir types (= different ages as well as numbers in relation to the boys numbers) provide more variety in the world of choirs, something I like.

Then again, I find it even more annoying over in the German speaking region, because we do not use the common word for "boy" = Junge, but the archaic expression "Knabe", which etymologically refers to young boys, from the age of a very little male child up to puberty. (Remark aside: Also for the better acceptance of boys choirs and more interest for their music, I wish the word "Knabe" would disappear and be replaced by the everyday word Junge. However, well ... tradition. )

Regarding Nidarosdomens Guttekor, I have never seen them without their men, neither in concerts nor on tour. On their website you find the following description:
"​The Nidaros Boys Choir is Norway's oldest boys choir and continues a nearly 1000-year-old tradition of boy choir singing in the Nidaros Cathedral. [...] The choir consists of both boys and adult men, around 65 boys aged 9-15 and 30 adult men voices. ​[...] Sopranos and altos are recruited from the choir’s own training choir, while most of the men’s voices are former boy choristers. ​The choir’s intention is to keeping the choristers singing as long as possible, with good results: many of the adult singers have over 20 and 30 years of experience in the choir."

Btw, when they travel, the boys are looked after by the men, who are responsible for a defined bunch of boys from the beginning of the trip until the end. This applies to Knabenchor Hannover as well.

This Knabenchor Hannover on its homepage says:
"One day the long-awaited news comes: the voice break is over. Nothing stands in the way of a return as a male voice in the KNABENCHOR HANNOVER. First as a "young male voice" to learn the choral repertoire in the new voice range, and then gradually more and more regularly in concerts.
Much more than pure accompaniment
The basses and tenors of the boys' choir are present at every concert of the boys' choir. Depending on the work, 20 to 30 male voices are on stage for the KNABENCHOR HANNOVER. From time to time the male voices of the KNABENCHOR HANNOVER also sing as a pure male choir, both in their own concerts and in the program of a boys' choir concert.​ ​
Another aspect: on concert tours, the adult singers take care of the boys - a proven principle from which all choir members benefit greatly.​"​

Perhaps it's rather the younger men who sing the TB voices, when it's a boarding school? As naturally there are no older men available. It's just a thought, I haven't really built statistics.

​​To sum it up, in theory I'm completely with you about the misleading habit to speak of such choirs as "boys choirs". But reality shows a varying practice.

Great topic to further discuss in-depth in the pub.

[Surpinto]

Thank you so much for the detailed analysis of the naming conventions. I wonder if this nomenclature issue is less prevalent in the English-speaking world and this is what causes the issue?

I can only think of one choir in the US or UK which has men but calls itself a boy's choir – and even then it's full name is "boy choir and chorale" . Usually the reference is "Choir of men and boys" or just "Choir of X Cathedral".

Certainly a great variety of voices is a good thing. Good tenors and basses, as well as the adult altos that are sometimes used, become better through time and experience. Far too often boy's choirs without a strong back row end up sounding thin without that support; a back row made all the better by older singers of course.

Only the better trained choirs with a well-chosen repertoire suitable for trebles successfully overcome this – Libera being exactly such a choir.

[filiarheni]

I wonder if this nomenclature issue is less prevalent in the English-speaking world and this is what causes the issue?

Yes, that would be interesting to explore. The reasons may lie deeply in regional history: How was it handled where in the beginnings of this type of choir and how went it on?

I can only think of one choir in the US or UK which has men but calls itself a boy's choir – and even then it's full name is "boy choir and chorale"

"Chorale"?

Certainly a great variety of voices is a good thing. Good tenors and basses, as well as the adult altos that are sometimes used, become better through time and experience. Far too often boy's choirs without a strong back row end up sounding thin without that support; a back row made all the better by older singers of course.

Only the better trained choirs with a well-chosen repertoire suitable for trebles successfully overcome this – Libera being exactly such a choir.

And still, Libera uses an (admittedly small) back row in many of their songs, whose absence you would distinctly notice if it was missing. And their home church format always has a proper department of tenors and basses, while they carry neither "boys" nor "men" in their name.

I'm still confused about the use of the word treble. Isn't that only the soprano?

Anyway, what I forgot to say above is that, following that reality, there was no reason at the Nuremberg festival to exclude any of the performing choirs. It was a wonderful entire day of music, and Yorkie, I believe that you would have thoroughly enjoyed it just like I did.
(And the reason was not that we could spend most of this very hot day in pleasantly conditioned churches. )

[Edited due to an error in the replying history, wording is the same as before.]

[Surpinto]

The reasons may lie deeply in regional history: How was it handled where in the beginnings of this type of choir and how went it on?

Exactly!

I can only think of one choir in the US or UK which has men but calls itself a boy's choir – and even then it's full name is "boy choir and chorale"

"Chorale"?

Oh that word is misused so often. I have seen it refer to an especially small choir, an especially large choir, or to anything else the person using it likes. Sometimes I've seen it used to refer to a less formal choral group, something more light-hearted in its organization. Strange I know! I have no explanation for this.

Typically in the US, from what I have seen (fellow North Americans please feel free to correct me) the official title of "choir" refers to a religious singing group (e.g. the Choir of X Church), "chorus" to a secular group (New York City Chorus).

It is important to note however that the word "choir" is still used as a catch-all for all such singing groups. So I could say "I sing in the New York City Chorus" and if asked what it is my reply would be "Oh, it's a local choir".

And still, Libera uses an (admittedly small) back row in many of their songs, whose absence you would distinctly notice if it was missing.

Absolutely! But the backrow is not in the same ratio, and therefore musical strength, as a proper choir of men and boys for example. My remark was more about how rare well trained trebles are who can carry their own weight properly. The backrow is essential to balancing out the sound for the musical piece itself, but that was not the thrust of my remark.

I'm still confused about the use of the word treble. Isn't that only the soprano?

I think there is the formal definition and the less formal catch-all definition (see here). In regular discourse it refers to youthful singers (unchanged voices), though it appears to not be the fully proper term for unchanged voices who sing in a lower register.

[Celtic]

I've always thought of a boys choir as any choir that has boy trebles as its top line. So for me I would include cathedral choirs, etc. in that list even if they include men. E.g. the Choir of Westminster Abbey.

Most cathedral choirs in Germany fall into this category, as do many of the other big name choirs like the Tölzer Knabenchor. In fact all the German knabenchors I can currently recollect have men in them. As do Austrian choirs like the Wiltener Sängerknaben and the St. Florianer Sängerknaben. Even if they do often offer concerts with only boys voices, the wider choir structure includes men. The Wiener Sängerknaben are the exception there with boys only staying until 14yo.

You could certainly argue that a boys choir should only be choir which includes under 18's with the older boys singing the lower parts. Although they are functionally the same as the cathedral choirs in that they offer the same sound profile. They only differ in experience levels.

This then would be choirs like the Cardinal Vaughan Schola Cantorum, the Trinity Boys Choir and the Bromley Boy Singers. Many of these choirs are often heard as trebles only, such as Trinity NINE which recently toured Germany, but changed voices do sing alongside them at other times.

In France the Petit Chanteurs or Maitrise choirs tend to fall into this category with singers typically staying until 18yo.

However, you could also argue that it is only truly a boys choir if it includes just unchanged voices. So you couldn't include Libera then.

In the UK there are plenty of these but they tend to be school choirs, so the quality can vary greatly. They are also overwhelmingly mixed as they are drawn from the school populations, although there are good mixed independent ones like the Welsh Cor Heol Y March. But then it isn't a boys choir but a childrens choir. But it is a Treble Choir. (because the term treble can apply to boys and girls and I was under the impression the term treble applied only to unchanged voices.)

To find only unchanged boys voices you would have to look to Prep Schools. For instance the Westminster Cathedral Choir School does actually have a separate choir from the one it provides for the Cathedral, and that is unchanged boys voices only, but it is a school choir not one involved in the daily services and so the quality is that of a school choir. I heard them for Christmas once... still, at least there were mince pies. There are some half decent independent ones outside of schools like the London Youth Boys Choir.

Outside of the UK the Wiener Sängerknaben and the Escolania de Montserrat are the two that immediately come to mind, but right now I can't think of any others. Many present treble only concerts and services, but almost all tend to have men or older boys with changed voices as part of the wider choir.

If I get to hear boy trebles sing, and ideally one sing a great solo, I'm happy. Frankly it could be a choir of boys and humpback whales, I'd still count it.

[Surpinto]

For instance the Westminster Cathedral Choir School does actually have a separate choir from the one it provides for the Cathedral, and that is unchanged boys voices only, but it is a school choir not one involved in the daily services and so the quality is that of a school choir. I heard them for Christmas once... still, at least there were mince pies.

Shall we take that as a resounding endorsement of the pies?

If I get to hear boy trebles sing, and ideally one sing a great solo, I'm happy. Frankly it could be a choir of boys and humpback whales, I'd still count it.

Sounds fishy. But I suppose we must be whale-coming of all singers...