This Finnish choir is an excellent boys/young men's choir. On their repertoire is , among lots of other stuff, Sibelius' "Finlandia" which has been adopted by Libera in the form of "Be still my soul".
I have to admit that I've never been to hear the choir, even though they are probably the only boys choir of a reasonable standard in this country. Maybe I should try attending some of their Christmas concerts this year... I just don't quite like their style – I think it is to a large extent due to the number of singers they have. Just too many people for them to have a "refined" sound. I know one or two people who've sung in Cantores Minores, though.
And that is not to say they are not good... I do like some of their recordings, too: one of my favourites is Oksan vehreen öljypuisen from the Piae Cantiones.
And yes, the Finlandia hymn... I recall having a conversation (possibly a rant ) on Friday at the St George's concert about the appropriateness of using the melody in a religious context. Well, now this is how it should be sung.
Re: Cantores Minores (Finland)
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:04 pm
by Yorkie
Lumi wrote:
And yes, the Finlandia hymn... I recall having a conversation (possibly a rant ) on Friday at the St George's concert about the appropriateness of using the melody in a religious context. Well, now this is how it should be sung.
Couldn't disagree more I'm afraid. Be Still is just one of a number of songs sung to the tune of 'Finlandia' and it is not a Libera creation. Why Finns are quite so possessive (and actually aggressive) about the use of this tune is beyond me. I stand to be corrected but I suspect the use of the tune for a Christian hymn probably pre-dates the Finlandia of Veikko Antero Koskenniemi.
It happpens all the time that beautiful tunes are reused in different formats. I seem to recall that the German national anthem has an equivalent use in an Anglican Hymn - much to the amazement and amusement of German POW's attending church services in England during WWII (IIRC Glorious Things of Thee are Spoken). It isn't new and frankly some of the comments made on YouTube on the Libera videos are shameful.
If you're interested:
[BBvideo 425,350][/BBvideo]
And the tune for the Star-Spangled Banner is apparently based on an old English pub drinking song!
Re: Cantores Minores (Finland)
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:33 pm
by Lumi
Yorkie wrote:Couldn't disagree more I'm afraid. Be Still is just one of a number of songs sung to the tune of 'Finlandia' and it is not a Libera creation. Why Finns are quite so possessive (and actually aggressive) about the use of this tune is beyond me. I stand to be corrected but I suspect the use of the tune for a Christian hymn probably pre-dates the Finlandia of Veikko Antero Koskenniemi.
It happpens all the time that beautiful tunes are reused in different formats. I seem to recall that the German national anthem has an equivalent use in an Anglican Hymn - much to the amazement and amusement of German POW's attending church services in England during WWII (IIRC Glorious Things of Thee are Spoken). It isn't new and frankly some of the comments made on YouTube on the Libera videos are shameful.
And the tune for the Star-Spangled Banner is apparently based on an old English pub drinking song!
In order to not to waste too much space on this topic:
► Show Spoiler
First of all, I hope you know that I do not agree with any hateful or agressive comments one might find on Youtube. But that is not to say that I do not understand the dismay of those people.
As to the history of the piece being used as a hymn, as far as I know, the first ones to set lyrics to the tune were Finnish immigrants to America. Sibelius felt that the piece was not meant to be sung, and is known to have accepted exactly two texts himself: one by Wäinö Sola and the other by V. A. Koskenniemi. Those are the words he wrote the choral arrangement(s) for.
It is also important to note that the words by Koskenniemi (and Sola) match the original context and meaning of Finlandia. So one could say that those texts perhaps compensate for what is lost when it is sung as a hymn outside the actual composition.
What I find much more relevant than that history, though, is the meaning that Finlandia has for the Finnish people today. Although written about the events in Finland at the turn of 19th century, the emotions it evokes also apply to later wars and events in history. And so it has become an integral part of our national identity, both as the full symphonic poem and a hymn.
In short: it wouldn't be considered appropriate to go and steal another country's flag to be used somewhere else; why should it be any more appropriate to take the single most important patriotic piece of music known to that country and rip it out of all its meaning?
And you know, not all Finns are against sharing the tune. Even I can think of some appropriate uses for the melody. But religion... Just needs to stay away from it. (And Nightwish does, too. )
(If you ask me, they are quite welcome to have our national anthem instead – also supposedly based on a drinking song. A German one. But Finlandia is just a whole another matter.)
...or then it could be that I just have been brainwashed by my primary school music teacher. Because I am not exactly what you would call a very patriotic person.
Re: Cantores Minores (Finland)
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:25 am
by Yorkie
Yep, read all that rubbish before. Didn't buy it then & I don't buy it now. The world moves on. Things change. Us British are constantly accused of living in the past but I don't think even we are so hung up on a piece of music! Last night of the Proms ; Land of Hope and Glory; Flags from all over the world being waved; everybody happy.
I could understand if it was a really rubbish song that but BSMS is really beautiful.
Re: Cantores Minores (Finland)
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:57 am
by maartendas
It's about accepting that meaning is made in a context. In the case of Finlandia, for a Finnish person the context is historical. For me, the context is spiritual and emotional. To illustrate this: the first time I visited San Damiano near Assisi (not the San Damiano of Sal Solo and St. Philip's Boys Choir) I celebrated Mass and during communion the organist played Finlandia. My immediate response to this was thinking of the lyrics of Be Still My Soul. This was a very emotional experience that made a strong impression on me at the time. So much so that I still think of that moment when I hear the song. But this does not mean that everyone else should have the same association when hearing the song or that it would be wrong for someone to make a different meaning of the composition.
Re: Cantores Minores (Finland)
Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:57 pm
by Lumi
Never went to the Advent concert, but the choir sung today at the Independence Day service at Helsinki Cathedral.
~5:00 Anthem 14:30 Iloitkoon taivas, riemuitkoon maa (Suikkanen) – Psalm 96 (:11-12, :1-3, :6) 21:00 Puhukaa keskenänne psalmeilla (Salonen) – Ephesians 5:19
41:57 Hymn
~55:00 Preces/responses of some kind 58:20 Hymn 1:02:20 Organ Toccata
(Bolded the ones worth listening.)
Musically quite boring, but the Salonen piece at 21:00 is interesting. And the first verse of the hymn at 58:20 was nicely sung, too. In those two the singing is also pretty impressive.
Re: Cantores Minores (Finland)
Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:44 pm
by maartendas
Thanks for this, I'll see if I can find some time to check it out as I'm curious now.
Can you translate the titles in Finnish for us?
Btw Lumi: I only know one song in Finnish and I think it's absolutely beautiful. Do you know it?
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Re: Cantores Minores (Finland)
Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:17 am
by Lumi
14:30 Iloitkoon taivas, riemuitkoon maa – Let the heavens rejoice, let the earth be glad
21:00 Puhukaa keskenänne psalmeilla – Speak to one another with psalms
58:20 Hymn – Soi kunniaksi Luojan – (A hymn of thanks now) Rings out to the glory of the Creator
I am familiar with the piece you posted – although I think my first time hearing it may actually have been in that very video by EscolanÃa del Escorial. It's beautifully sung, but unfortunately I cannot listen to it with a straight face even though it is such a sad song. You see, the actual title is "Tuuti tummaistani", not "tumaistani". There is a very definite difference between the two: tumma means dark, while tuma is the nucleus of a cell. So tumainen, which unfortunately is also what they sing, would refer to something that is very concentrated with nuclei or possibly covered with them – or alternatively it could also be a term of endearment for a little cell nucleus.
I am not actually sure what is the exact meaning of "tummaistani" – I think the title "Tuuti tummaistani" would translate as "Lullay my little dark one" and in that it would then refer to a young child or baby who has passed away. Another similar piece, also a song to a lost child, is "The song of my heart" (here performed in a cathedral) by Jean Sibelius. It's even more heartbreaking – Sibelius composed it as a part of an opus when his wife was with a child, and it is said that when their daughter then passed away two years later he played it to her on the piano.
And now, that was completely off topic.
Re: Cantores Minores (Finland)
Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:07 am
by maartendas
Thanks for the off topic banter, it's not too far off
Just wondered if you could translate the Finnish titles you posted earlier (in the link to the Cantores Minores performance)?
P.S.: Have you never heard of the endearment for a little nucleus cell?
ETA: Just listened to the Cantores Minores. Interesting placement of the choir, or should I say interesting organ build since the choir is obviously placed according to the organ structure. It probably has to do with the difficult size of the church they sing in. I thought the opening hymn has a nice tune but the blend of the voices was off, like both the boys and the men were trying a bit too hard. I only listened to the parts in bold after that. I liked the piece at 14:30 best, here they sang very focused and controlled. The Salonen piece was very nice too. But all in all they didn't yet shine for me, maybe because the service as a whole lacked any atmosphere of festivity, which reflected on the choir, I think.
Re: Cantores Minores (Finland)
Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:36 pm
by Lumi
maartendas wrote:Just wondered if you could translate the Finnish titles you posted earlier (in the link to the Cantores Minores performance)?
I believe I did that in my last post. Take a closer look – they should be in the quote box with italics.
maartendas wrote:P.S.: Have you never heard of the endearment for a little nucleus cell?
maartendas wrote:ETA: Just listened to the Cantores Minores. Interesting placement of the choir, or should I say interesting organ build since the choir is obviously placed according to the organ structure. It probably has to do with the difficult size of the church they sing in. I thought the opening hymn has a nice tune but the blend of the voices was off, like both the boys and the men were trying a bit too hard. I only listened to the parts in bold after that. I liked the piece at 14:30 best, here they sang very focused and controlled. The Salonen piece was very nice too. But all in all they didn't yet shine for me, maybe because the service as a whole lacked any atmosphere of festivity, which reflected on the choir, I think.
Yeah, I pretty much agree with everything you say there. I thought it was actually quite interesting how they at times they sounded very good, and then often in the next piece everything was just really off in every possible aspect.
The atmosphere was something I noticed, too. It felt more like a funeral – which is understandable, as it is not only a day of celebration but also very much one of remembrance. But there was much more to it than that I think, almost like nobody wanted to be there... Generally just weirdly dull and depressing – but then I'm thinking that actually might be a part of the church culture in this country.
Anyway, nice that you took interest and listened to the service!
Re: Cantores Minores (Finland)
Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:52 pm
by viabuona
I think the atmosphere was to much 'formally' because there was the Prime-Minister and a lot of VIPs as visitors. In such a case you have also a lot of bodyguards and policemen. This does not really support a relaxed atmosphere.
The songs they sang - hm, not really my cup of tea but they were sung well under these circumstances. So I think a visit of a concert of this choir would be worth.
Re: Cantores Minores (Finland)
Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:19 pm
by Lumi
viabuona wrote:I think the atmosphere was to much 'formally' because there was the Prime-Minister and a lot of VIPs as visitors. In such a case you have also a lot of bodyguards and policemen. This does not really support a relaxed atmosphere.
The president, rather. Anyway, a "relaxed" atmosphere was not was what I was personally missing, just a slightly less... apathetic one.
I mean even the way it was filmed: it's so dark inside, and then the colour balance in the broadcast is all greenish/grey.
Re: Cantores Minores (Finland)
Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:20 pm
by maartendas
Lumi wrote:
maartendas wrote:Just wondered if you could translate the Finnish titles you posted earlier (in the link to the Cantores Minores performance)?
I believe I did that in my last post. Take a closer look – they should be in the quote box with italics.
Oh, you're too clever for my sleepy head
Re: Cantores Minores (Finland)
Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:01 pm
by viabuona
Lumi wrote:I mean even the way it was filmed: it's so dark inside, and then the colour balance in the broadcast is all greenish/grey.
Can't see this. On my monitors white is white, blue is blue - maybe it helps when you clean the screen
) on Friday at the St George's concert about the appropriateness of using the melody in a religious context. Well, now this is how it should be sung. 
Because I am not exactly what you would call a very patriotic person.
Can't see this. On my monitors white is white, blue is blue - maybe it helps when you clean the screen