Libera Dreams

Hi,

I'll be in the UK in the middle of this year. I'll miss Libera's May concert, very unfortunately, so I've decided to make up for it by listening to other choirs during my trip instead (Libera would have been my top choice). I'll be visiting Cambridge so I'll get to listen to King's College Choir. In London, however, I'm deciding between two choirs due to the lack of time. Should I go for Westminster Abbey Choir or Westminster Cathedral Choir? What are the differences, and which is better in your opinion? I also heard of Chapels Royal, but I haven't been able to find out much about it. Could any UK folks or treble experts help me with my choices between the 2-3 choirs in London? Thank you!

Impossible to answer really as the best is a matter of personal taste and (at least for me) whether the songs chosen for a particular service speak to you.

First up the potential bad news - when will you be coming because all the choirs will be on their summer vacation from July until late September. Other choirs may sing but almost certainly it will be adult choirs and not the choir of the particular church or cathedral you are in.

Now for some good news - when at Cambridge you can take in two choirs on the same day because Kings Choir and St John's choir hold their Evensong Services at different times. Kings starts at 5.30pm and St John's at 6.30 so it is perfectly possible to catch both.

In London the Evensong services (Westminster Abbey/St Paul's) and Vespers (Westminster Cathedral) are at 5pm midweek but Saturday opens up an opportunity because it takes place at 3pm at the Abbey and 5pm at St Paul's meaning you can do both on a Saturday. Westminster Cathedral offers a double whammy for your money - Vespers at 5pm followed by a Solemn Mass at 5.30, Not being RC I tend to get a bit lost by what is going on at Mass though!

One word of warning that applies to all these places. Even during term time when the choir is in attendance, there will be one day a week (at least) where the choristers are not present. I know that the boys don't sing on a Thursday at St Paul's because that's their night for sports. I'm not sure of the days for the others but they all publish a service schedule and it should be apparent from that who is singing on a particular day. On the flip side, on a Monday at the Abbey it is the boys only singing without the adults. I tend to avoid it though because I like to get the full SATB sound.

After the big three there are two other possible options to consider (well two that I can vouch for, probably others I haven't yet attended). Southwark Cathedral & Temple church. Southwark Cathedral was actually the first Evensong service I attended (badly planned trip which just happened to be when the big three were on a mid-term break) smaller and less formal than the big three but excellent singing (and very easy to get a good seat). Temple Church is a bit of an outsider as there seems to be no regular plan to their services! They're good but difficult to catch, however, it is worth visiting as it is one of the oldest churches in London and was in the Da Vinci Code book/film (and yes Knights Templar are buried there).

Lastly, the Chapel Royal. I know very little about them and I can't give a view on them because I've never heard them sing (at least on their own). Only time I've seen them is at state events (William & Kate's wedding, etc) when the boys join up with the choir at the Abbey or St Paul's (they are the guys stood in front of the choir stalls in the rather natty red and gold outfits (designed in the 17th Century)).

Yorkie has given a very thorough reply.
All I can add is that the atmosphere and the acoustics of the Abbey alone make it a place to prefer over the Cathedral. Plus I am a bigger fan of their choir sound which you also get to experience much more up close than in the Cathedral - the only time I was in the Cathedral it was during a Mass and the congregation sat in the pews and the choir was far away behind the altar.

For me, attending Evensong at the Abbey is one of the must-do's during a London visit. If you queue at the West Door about 30 minutes in advance there's good chance to get a seat in the Quire stalls, and that's definitely worth it.

First of all you should visit from time to time the homepages of those churches. You'll find out what goes on about choirs, service times and also possible concerts. Here some links:

Westminster Cathedral

Westminster Abbey

St Paul's

Chapel Royal

Temple Church

I would recommend you to visit Westminster Abbey - if you are in front of the queue you'll have the chance to sit in the stalls - a really top position for choirfans
Like Yorkie told it, on Monday are only the boys present and as I'm informed at Tuesdays only the adults. I participated once on a Monday and it was also a great experience to listen to the boys only.

Maybe you should also think about a visit at St Philip's Norbury - it's a really brillinat choir.

I agree with both Viabuona and Maartendas that the Abbey is a stunning setting with an unforgettable wow factor if you bag a seat in the Quire with the choir

I get there early (4pm) to make sure I'm near the front at the west door as Maarten said (even better if you pay to take the full tour which is worth it but pricey and do so in the afternoon. They kick tourists out at about 4pm but you can wait inside if you are attending Evensong and get a head start on those queuing outside). They let people waiting for Evensong into the Abbey at about 4.30 to wait inside. It is tempting to dawdle around admiring the view but those in the know head down the left hand side of the church to start a second queue (just in front of an iron gate and on the gravestone of Charles Darwin) before they let you in to the area where the service is held. If you are among the first let the Verger know you would like to sit in the choir stalls rather than the ranks of wooden chairs in the nave.

If you do sit in the choir stalls it is very intimate and whilst that isn't the case at Westminster Cathedral it is still a great experience. You can sit in the choir stalls at St Paul's too and the plan is pretty much as for the Abbey - when they let you in to the seating area 'proper' where the service will be held keep to the left and ask the Verger if you can sit in the choir stalls.

St P's is of course excellent but please remember that it isn't Libera and it is only Sunday (morning and evening)

First, I apologise for not replying sooner. I had indicated that I wanted the system to "notify me when a reply is posted", but somehow I was never notified. Second, WOW, and thank you Yorkie, Maartendas, and Viabuona for such excellent replies! I see that Abbey ranks very strongly. I do have some questions on some of the points/suggestions raised. It's fine if you're busy and do not have time to reply, but here are my questions/comments:

Yorkie,

1. You mentioned that the best is a matter of personal taste. Do the choirs differ vastly in their styles, repertoire, etc., such that my personal taste might tend only to one choir?

2. I will be in London in May, just mere days after Libera's concert, hence the huge disappointment when I heard the announcement. I note that King's starts at 5.30pm and St John's at 6.30pm. Thank you for this information. King's informed me that their choral service lasts around 45 minutes, which leaves me 15 minutes to get to St John's. Do you think 15 minutes is sufficient to get from one venue to another?

3. I'm not RC either, so the terms "Vespers" and "Solemn Mass" sound intimidating to me. :p Do you know if they are both choral services? Someone told me that RC music and Church of England music is quite different, and RC music (Cathedral) has lagged behind in quality in recent years compared with Abbey. Do you think so too?

4. Thank you for the word of warning on schedules. I'll do my due diligence and check their schedules before I arrive.

5. Thank you for the information on Temple Church and the other choirs. I had wrongly assumed that the choral scene is no longer as active as it used to be! I do like the history attached to Temple Church, so I may pay a visit if time permits (and perhaps, drop them an email before I do). Chapel Royal does seem rather elusive (exclusive?).

6. I booked a concert at the Westminster Abbey, but the remaining seats were those at the sides (slightly restricted view). In terms of acoustics, will I be severely worse off?

7. I can sit in the choir stalls/Quire too? Wow. How close is that to the choir? Regarding St Paul's, I was advised to sit under the dome for the best acoustics. Between the choir stalls and under the dome, which would you recommend for an overall experience?

THANK YOU, Yorkie!!!

Maartendas,

Thank you for sharing your wonderful experience at the Abbey, and the comparison of Cathedral and Abbey. I'll take your advice on arriving 30 minutes early!

THANK YOU, Maartendas!!!

Viabuona,

Thank you for all the links! Westminster + Stall Seats seem to be the best experience so far! Unfortunately, I will be traveling out of England for most Mondays, and I will miss the boys-only service. I will also be out of England for all Sundays, so St P's looks unlikely. Maybe next time.

THANK YOU, Viabuona!!!

thewhyb wrote:7. I can sit in the choir stalls/Quire too? Wow. How close is that to the choir? Regarding St Paul's, I was advised to sit under the dome for the best acoustics. Between the choir stalls and under the dome, which would you recommend for an overall experience?

Evensong at St Paul's is certainly worth going to – the last time I went to London I did not even consider Westminster Abbey (based on their recent recordings) and instead went to St Paul's every night. But that of course comes down to personal taste.

As to the acoustics at St Paul's, they are of course impressive and worth experiencing... But to be honest, for most music (except for certain grand hymns and anthems) they are just terrible. Last november in one of the services I attended the choir sang Gibbons and Purcell, and while the singing was of an excellent standard, mixed with the reverb the result was a bit eccentric to say the least. I'm not sure how much better it is in the stalls, but probably at least a bit.
But even that time, hearing the full choir join the soloists with "Rejoice in the Lord Alway.." like thunder, or sing the Ayleward responses (frequently performed) – nothing more magnificent in the world.

In the general seating area you will of course have more time to look at the dome itself, that is if you do not plan to visit the cathedral separately. Also if you are not familiar with the order of service, you may find sitting there more comfortable. (The instructions are very clear, but nonetheless people always seem slightly lost about when to sit and stand. ) And at least the last time I was there with the full choir present, they sang the introit right behind the seats under the dome.
On the other hand, in the seating area there are often people walking in and out and talking without any consideration. Pisses me off beyond belief every time.

Lumi wrote:Evensong at St Paul's is certainly worth going to – the last time I went to London I did not even consider Westminster Abbey (based on their recent recordings) and instead went to St Paul's every night. But that of course comes down to personal taste.

As to the acoustics at St Paul's, they are of course impressive and worth experiencing... But to be honest, for most music (except for certain grand hymns and anthems) they are just terrible. Last november in one of the services I attended the choir sang Gibbons and Purcell, and while the singing was of an excellent standard, mixed with the reverb the result was a bit eccentric to say the least. I'm not sure how much better it is in the stalls, but probably at least a bit.
But even that time, hearing the full choir join the soloists with "Rejoice in the Lord Alway.." like thunder, or sing the Ayleward responses (frequently performed) – nothing more magnificent in the world.

In the general seating area you will of course have more time to look at the dome itself, that is if you do not plan to visit the cathedral separately. Also if you are not familiar with the order of service, you may find sitting there more comfortable. (The instructions are very clear, but nonetheless people always seem slightly lost about when to sit and stand. ) And at least the last time I was there with the full choir present, they sang the introit right behind the seats under the dome.
On the other hand, in the seating area there are often people walking in and out and talking without any consideration. Pisses me off beyond belief every time.

I certainly agree with you on the recordings. Personally, I think King's College Cambridge has the best recordings at the moment. But for you to visit St Paul's every night, it must have been real impressive!

How would you define "eccentric" acoustics at St Paul's? I'm tempted by stall seats, but as you mentioned, I am not familiar with the order of service in a traditional church, and it gets intimidating. And I certainly agree with you on people walking in and out and talking - sure spoils the mood of things. :p

thewhyb wrote:How would you define "eccentric" acoustics at St Paul's? I'm tempted by stall seats, but as you mentioned, I am not familiar with the order of service in a traditional church, and it gets intimidating. And I certainly agree with you on people walking in and out and talking - sure spoils the mood of things. :p

Well, you know, take any piece of music and add several seconds of heavy reverb. It's fine when the full choir is singing, but any duets for instance become very easily all messed up to the listener. Also, don't expect to make out any of the words in the psalms unless you know them or follow them from the booklet...

I guess I need to go sit in the quire when I'm there in May, and see if there is a notable difference. The one time I've sat there before was my very first evensong, I went there only once during the trip and it was also just the Vicars Choral singing. So I wasn't exactly concentrating on the acoustics.

Lumi wrote:Well, you know, take any piece of music and add several seconds of heavy reverb. It's fine when the full choir is singing, but any duets for instance become very easily all messed up to the listener. Also, don't expect to make out any of the words in the psalms unless you know them or follow them from the booklet...

I guess I need to go sit in the quire when I'm there in May, and see if there is a notable difference. The one time I've sat there before was my very first evensong, I went there only once during the trip and it was also just the Vicars Choral singing. So I wasn't exactly concentrating on the acoustics.

I get the picture now. Lol, yes, I would imagine the words would hardly be audible with the reverb. I'm guessing the trebles might sound a little clearer than the bass and tenors though.

Coincidentally, we'd be in London around the same period. The acoustics from the full choir will probably be hugely different from the acoustics from Vicars. The "quire" is the area where the choristers are sitting? Are we allowed to sit there too? It does feel exciting (and intimidating at the same time) to be so close to the choir!

thewhyb wrote:I get the picture now. Lol, yes, I would imagine the words would hardly be audible with the reverb. I'm guessing the trebles might sound a little clearer than the bass and tenors though.

Coincidentally, we'd be in London around the same period. The acoustics from the full choir will probably be hugely different from the acoustics from Vicars. The "quire" is the area where the choristers are sitting? Are we allowed to sit there too? It does feel exciting (and intimidating at the same time) to be so close to the choir!

I'd actually say the opposite: trebles do not the sing at the same volume as the lower voices, and it is also more difficult to maintain clear diction (consonants drown between the wovels, while wovels start all sounding the same) when singing higher notes. But of course trebles and countertenors sing with a straight tone with no vibrato to complicate things; in that sense the sound they produce is clearer.

I found this picture of the quire. Here is the floorplan. The picture is taken from very close to the altar, so in the background (after the red lamps) you can see the area under the dome and the nave. The the quire stalls are in three sections, the two that are closest to the camera are the ones where visitors are invited to sit. The third one, furthest away from the camera and a with an extra row, is where the choir sings. So yes, you can sit pretty close, but on the other hand in the main seating area you'll probable feel more at ease to look around yourself.

thewhyb wrote: Yorkie,

1. You mentioned that the best is a matter of personal taste. Do the choirs differ vastly in their styles, repertoire, etc., such that my personal taste might tend only to one choir?

Vastly? No not really. WC probably has the most different sound of the other major choirs on your list along with St John's as they are 'continental' style but I don't find it as noticeable in a 'live' service as I do listening to a CD.

thewhyb wrote:2. I will be in London in May, just mere days after Libera's concert, hence the huge disappointment when I heard the announcement. I note that King's starts at 5.30pm and St John's at 6.30pm. Thank you for this information. King's informed me that their choral service lasts around 45 minutes, which leaves me 15 minutes to get to St John's. Do you think 15 minutes is sufficient to get from one venue to another?

Yes, it's doable which is why I suggested it Ideally you will stake out the route before hand but should take less than 10 minutes if you have average mobility. You can use Google maps to give you the route

thewhyb wrote:3. I'm not RC either, so the terms "Vespers" and "Solemn Mass" sound intimidating to me. :p Do you know if they are both choral services? Someone told me that RC music and Church of England music is quite different, and RC music (Cathedral) has lagged behind in quality in recent years compared with Abbey. Do you think so too?

They are generally both choral services - if the choir is at home. Vespers tends to be the men only. Last week, just picking a day at random, saw Magnificat octavi toni (Ogilvy) at Vespers and then Missa Emendemus in melius (Palestrina), Miserere mei (Malcolm) & Sanctus XVIII at Mass. If I'm honest I find some of WC material to be hit and miss but the quality of singing is excellent.

thewhyb wrote:4. Thank you for the word of warning on schedules. I'll do my due diligence and check their schedules before I arrive.

Westminster Abbey & St Paul's normally have the music for services published a few weeks ahead which helps with planning on which night to attend at which place.

thewhyb wrote:5. Thank you for the information on Temple Church and the other choirs. I had wrongly assumed that the choral scene is no longer as active as it used to be! I do like the history attached to Temple Church, so I may pay a visit if time permits (and perhaps, drop them an email before I do). Chapel Royal does seem rather elusive (exclusive?).

It isn't in truth. 50 years ago St Philip's would have been the norm in being a church that had a traditional choir. Today it is one of only a very few in the country. The Cathedrals and important churches/colleges maintain choirs because they have the funds, but few other churches do. Temple church is well worth a look (if you like looking at old churches and I do!) as is St Bartholomew-the Great (another church with Libera & film connections). Temple is tiny though!

thewhyb wrote:6. I booked a concert at the Westminster Abbey, but the remaining seats were those at the sides (slightly restricted view). In terms of acoustics, will I be severely worse off?

No, I don't think so on sound but Ive always sat in view of the choir so I can't be 100% sure.

thewhyb wrote:7. I can sit in the choir stalls/Quire too? Wow. How close is that to the choir? Regarding St Paul's, I was advised to sit under the dome for the best acoustics. Between the choir stalls and under the dome, which would you recommend for an overall experience?

Very close, depending on which end of the pew you get!



In this picture you can see that the choir stalls are divided in to three sections; the choir sits in the middle block (half on one side and half on the other) and if you bag a seat you will be in the block nearest the camera (you can just see the edges of the 'public' block in this photo), so depending on which end you get you could be sat four feet from some of them!

Yorkie wrote:

thewhyb wrote:2. I will be in London in May, just mere days after Libera's concert, hence the huge disappointment when I heard the announcement. I note that King's starts at 5.30pm and St John's at 6.30pm. Thank you for this information. King's informed me that their choral service lasts around 45 minutes, which leaves me 15 minutes to get to St John's. Do you think 15 minutes is sufficient to get from one venue to another?

Yes, it's doable which is why I suggested it Ideally you will stake out the route before hand but should take less than 10 minutes if you have average mobility. You can use Google maps to give you the route

Have you ever tried to get to evensong at both King's and Jesus College Chapels on the same day?
I agree King's/St. John's is easily doable even for a slow mover like me, but Jesus Chapel looks to be further away and I don't yet know how accessible it is from the street.
I will be in Cambridge in a few weeks and plan on attending St John's on a Wednesday (King's day off) and was planning on trying to get to both King's And Jesus on the Thursday. I know little about the Jesus Chapel Choir other than, like St. Philip's, it is made up of local boys from different schools in the Cambridge area rather than from a choir school.
On Friday there's a concert at Ely Cathedral; Saturday a Britten centenary event in Norwich and then, to top it off, back to London and St Philip's on Sunday evening.

This post is making me long to go to the UK again
I agree with Yorkie that St. Bartholomew the Great has a very special atmosphere. The building just oozes with history and a sense of prayer and worship. I only sat there once, for about ten minutes while the choir (a small mixed adult choir) was rehearsing but it still left quite an impression.
My experience of sitting in the Abbey quire stalls was wonderful. It's really exciting to be that up close. I felt much more involved and the fact that you can really pick out individual voices is pretty cool. I also had that when I visited St. Philip's.

Lumi wrote:I'd actually say the opposite: trebles do not the sing at the same volume as the lower voices, and it is also more difficult to maintain clear diction (consonants drown between the wovels, while wovels start all sounding the same) when singing higher notes. But of course trebles and countertenors sing with a straight tone with no vibrato to complicate things; in that sense the sound they produce is clearer.

Spoken like a true expert!

Lumi wrote:Here is the floorplan.

I assume number 7 is where the quire is? The photo of the cathedral you linked to is very nice! I do realise that it's a service I'll be attending, so I'm guessing photography or videography will not be allowed?

Lumi wrote:So yes, you can sit pretty close, but on the other hand in the main seating area you'll probable feel more at ease to look around yourself.

Yep, I think so too! But I'll probably sit at the quire at least once for the experience.

Yorkie wrote:Yes, it's doable which is why I suggested it Ideally you will stake out the route before hand but should take less than 10 minutes if you have average mobility. You can use Google maps to give you the route

Awesome! Everything seems to fit nicely in Cambridge.

Yorkie wrote:Last week, just picking a day at random, saw Magnificat octavi toni (Ogilvy) at Vespers and then Missa Emendemus in melius (Palestrina), Miserere mei (Malcolm) & Sanctus XVIII at Mass.

Very interesting selection. Although I appreciate their "liturgical" music, I also like some of the "classical" pieces that these choirs sing on YouTube or on their albums. I guess these are not usually sung during an evensong? (Apologies if I described the types of music incorrectly. By "liturgical", I mean music with "responses" or those that use a single note repeatedly.)

Yorkie wrote:Temple church is well worth a look (if you like looking at old churches and I do!) as is St Bartholomew-the Great (another church with Libera & film connections). Temple is tiny though!

I wish cathedral/church/college choirs will continue for many years to come! It's a tradition, really. It's what makes your cathedrals so special. I checked St Bartholomew, and it looks great. What is the Libera connection? Hope time allows for visits to both St Bartholomew and Temple!

Yorkie wrote:In this picture you can see that the choir stalls are divided in to three sections; the choir sits in the middle block (half on one side and half on the other) and if you bag a seat you will be in the block nearest the camera (you can just see the edges of the 'public' block in this photo), so depending on which end you get you could be sat four feet from some of them!

You're making me excited. Who sits in the front block then (in front of the choir)? Do people usually sit that near to them? (Don't want to be looking awkward alone up front. )

john45 wrote:It is made up of local boys from different schools in the Cambridge area rather than from a choir school. On Friday there's a concert at Ely Cathedral; Saturday a Britten centenary event in Norwich and then, to top it off, back to London and St Philip's on Sunday evening.

It is interesting to observe any differences between a regular choir and a school choir. I know the experience in a choir school is great, but how that reflects in their singing compared with a regular choir is something I'd like to observe. Sounds like a choral tour for you! Hope you enjoy it.

maartendas wrote:This post is making me long to go to the UK again.

Why not?

maartendas wrote:My experience of sitting in the Abbey quire stalls was wonderful. It's really exciting to be that up close. I felt much more involved and the fact that you can really pick out individual voices is pretty cool. I also had that when I visited St. Philip's.

That's really nice. Sights + sounds sure offer the best experience! How does St Philip's sound? Unfortunately, I will not be in London for any of the Sundays during my trip to Europe.