Oranges and Lemons

[Citlec]

So, a few months ago I was perusing the internet, and on one of my usual random rabbit hole adventures started reading about the old nursery rhyme "Oranges and Lemons" and the churches associated with it. I realised I'd actually visited a few of the churches already for concerts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oranges_and_Lemons

Yesterday, I happened to walk past St Clement's just as the bells pealed, which renewed my interest in trying, over time, to visit all the churches in the various versions of the rhyme.

I put together a map (primarily for my own aid), but I'm sharing it here just in case there's anyone even remotely interested.

Edit: Current progress:

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OrangesAndLemons2.jpg (259.11 KiB) Viewed 1523 times

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit? ... sp=sharing

[Luckdragon]

I put together a map (primarily for my own aid), but I'm sharing it here just in case there's anyone even remotely interested.
https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit? ... sp=sharing

Interesting. I'd never heard this rhyme before so I looked it up.

I found a post by someone who did a walking tour in 2018. Their map is more condensed than yours, and not musically oriented, but has plenty of pictures and is a good introduction to these historic locations for non-Brits.

https://wtlh18.wordpress.com/2018/12/11 ... -churches/

[Citlec]

Interesting. I'd never heard this rhyme before so I looked it up.

I found a post by someone who did a walking tour in 2018. Their map is more condensed than yours, and not musically oriented, but has plenty of pictures and is a good introduction to these historic locations for non-Brits.

https://wtlh18.wordpress.com/2018/12/11 ... -churches/

Oh, thanks for that!

That blog entry kind of shows why I find it a bit interesting, because there is a bit of uncertainty about the churches that the various versions refer to.

For instance, St Martin-in-the-Fields (the one in the corner of Trafalgar Square), is listed as the church that the "Bells of St. Martin's" refers to, but others, like that blog, claim it is St Martin Ongar, which only exists now as a tower built in tribute. I've put both on my map, to cover my bases! Although I've been to St-Martin-in-the-Fields quite often for concerts, I had never even heard of the other! (fun fact, Luca Brugnoli once sang in St-Martin-in-the-Fields https://www.instagram.com/p/CsYzTJSO9iU/ (I wasn't there though))

I'm not looking to go into huge detail on this, the idea is, if I'm in town and in the mood to see if I can visit one or two and find out a bit about them.

[Surpinto]

I'm only familiar with the rhyme from "1984"

Both the book and the film (the one made in the year 1984 of course) use it. If you've never seen the movie, and like a good dystopian flick, I recommend it.

As to the church visit: best of luck to you!

[Citlec]

I'm only familiar with the rhyme from "1984"

Both the book and the film (the one made in the year 1984 of course) use it. If you've never seen the movie, and like a good dystopian flick, I recommend it.

As to the church visit: best of luck to you!

Oh my! Thank you! That's exactly what I love about this sort of thing, those hidden connections! I've never seen the film but I have read the book. I presume at the time I glossed over it as simply a reference to something from my childhood. It apparently has deeper meaning. I dug, savagely, through my bookcases and eventually, I found it...

► Show Spoiler

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20240717_213540.jpg (447.74 KiB) Viewed 2477 times

Am I the only one that finds it creepy that this quote is on page 101...?

Edit: There's more!

► Show Spoiler

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20240717_220635b.jpg (173.88 KiB) Viewed 2468 times

► Show Spoiler

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20240717_220651b.jpg (157.55 KiB) Viewed 2468 times

It goes on to talk about the Bell's of St Martin's! So at least according to George Orwell, Luca did sing in the church of the rhyme.

[Surpinto]

I'm only familiar with the rhyme from "1984"

Both the book and the film (the one made in the year 1984 of course) use it. If you've never seen the movie, and like a good dystopian flick, I recommend it.

As to the church visit: best of luck to you!

Oh my! Thank you! That's exactly what I love about this sort of thing, those hidden connections! I've never seen the film but I have read the book. I presume at the time I glossed over it as simply a reference to something from my childhood. It apparently has deeper meaning. I dug, savagely, through my bookcases and eventually, I found it...

► Show Spoiler

20240717_213540.jpg

Am I the only one that finds it creepy that this quote is on page 101...?

Edit: There's more!

► Show Spoiler

20240717_220635b.jpg

► Show Spoiler

20240717_220651b.jpg

It goes on to talk about the Bell's of St Martin's! So at least according to George Orwell, Luca did sing in the church of the rhyme.

Page 101?! We're doomed! lol Good sleuthing and I'm glad I opened something up you with which you were unfamiliar as it's usually the other way round.

[john45]

Anyone remember playing this?
https://www.wikihow.com/Play-Oranges-and-Lemons

[Citlec]

Anyone remember playing this?
https://www.wikihow.com/Play-Oranges-and-Lemons

I read about that game, but if I did ever play it I have no recollection of it. As far as I recall it was just taught as a rhyme and nothing more, but then, my school days are increasingly shrouded in the mists of time...

[filiarheni]

Oooooooh, Oranges and Lemons! Citlec (I always must read it from backwards to double-check if I got your (former) name right ), you opened a thread about my favourite nursery rhyme of all!

And how so?

My father used to be on business trips to the UK quite often and several times he brought my brother and me a record, just randomly chosen from what he thought we'd like. (Excursus: As these mostly were choral records, I have really NO idea why I never explored choral music earlier, while I enjoyed singing in a school choir later on, but, through the instruments I played was focused on instrumental music.)

And I did like those records! So much that I kept them, later digitised them and still listen today with enjoyment and yes, even to the "My Own Nursery Rhymes Record" he once gave me. This is an exceptional recording of a huge number of nursery rhymes, because it's not done in a typically child appealing manner, but arranged with a full symphonic (and more) orchestra and sung by two operatic soloists - a soprano (Cynthia Glover) and a baritone (John Lawrenson) - and a children's choir. And it definitely was excellently done!

I love it that these rhymes were treated in such a respectful manner! It's a brilliant idea. Perhaps, in this way they managed to initiate an interest in classical style of instrumental and vocal music in their child listeners, to explore further and find their love in this kind of music? And I admit that, when I listen to this interpretation, I most of the time don't even think of the songs being "nursery rhymes". I just listen to them as beautiful, uplifting music.

In my first year of learning English as a child, I was eager to find out the lyrics. I was so proud after I had mastered finding out the entire lyrics to One, two, three, four, five all by myself. Several years later, we spent two weeks in the US, guests at the house of my American piano teacher's parents. After I already had tormented my piano teacher to please help me identifying some songs' lyrics ... which he kindly was prepared to do.* So, in his parents' house, I found a book called "Mother Goose" and only then realised where the words came from. How many of the lyrics I found there! Can you imagine how I sat down to patiently copying them all with my hands? I was so happy.

This was a looong introduction, now to Oranges and Lemons:

This song has immediately turned out as my favourite of the entire record and remained that way. And that's exactly because of the tubular bells, which I love, as they always create a feeling of happiness of unknown origin in me (one of the riddles in my life) and because of how the tune was harmonised, with the changing major and minor chords. Here you go (and if you're interested, this is the full record):



The lyrics used in this version are:

Oranges and lemons,
Say the bells of St. Clement's.
You owe me five farthings,
Say the bells of St. Martin's.

When will you pay me?
Say the bells of Old Bailey.
When I grow rich,
Say the bells of Shoreditch.

When will that be?
Say the bells of Stepney.
I do not know,
Says the great bell of Bow.

Refr.: Here comes a candle to light you to bed,
And here comes a chopper to chop off your head!

Pancakes and fritters,
Say the bells of St. Peter's.
Two sticks and an apple,
Say the bells of Whitechapel.

Old Father Baldpate,
Say the slow bells of Aldgate.
Pokers and tongs,
Say the bells of St. John's.

Kettles and pans,
Say the bells of St. Ann's.
Brickbats and tiles,
Say the bells of St. Giles’.
Refr.

What I actually never got, are the lines about chopping off one's head. Or why John Ostler tells the ducks to "come and be killed" to end as food (Oh what have you got for dinner, Mrs. Bond). Or why in Sing a Song of Sixpence (another high favourite of mine, such a nice tune!) a blackbird is pecking off the maiden's nose. Why the cruelty?

Much, much later, already in my Libera era, I got another Libera fan's hint to research for the history of nursery rhymes, which revealed a lot of - supposed or proven? - origins to me. Very interesting.

If interested, here's an example:
https://www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/M ... ry-Rhymes/

https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/201 ... ery-rhymes

While some of the told histories are probably to be enjoyed with caution. Some stories like to become popular and are spread without actually being true. I don't find the site anymore, where this was exemplified.


After this long novel of enthusiasm, Citlec, I have to tell you that it's a great idea to see all of these Oranges and Lemons churches. That must be wonderful! I'm shocked that I never got the same idea.
Anyway, apologies for turning this topic into a nursery rhyme topic for a while! You struck a chord in me, when putting up this thread.


*And this is for the British and Americans: I had been asking that teacher for the words of Dame, get up and bake your pies. This song appealed a lot to me due to the minor key tune. My piano teacher (remember: American), not familiar with the song, identified one line as "Dame, what makes your dogs to die?" and he visibly suffered due to the British, "hard" pronunciation of "dogs" :shock : www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nc4AMhwPPDs&t=740s

From the mentioned Mother Goose book, I later found out that it's actually "ducks" and not "dogs" and so the pronunciation was just fine.
It was my first time to notice that Americans and British can have some differences ...

[Surpinto]

Fascinating! It's really unbelievable how many circuitous and unusual routes the musically inclined take on their lifelong musical journey. Loved the story! Thank you.

[filiarheni]

Thank you for bearing my outbreak!

Yes, it's one of the many bricks of which my love for all kinds of music has been "composed".

And well, if an internet had existed, all of that would have happened earlier and quicker. I actually also received a record called "Hymns for Children" with a wonderful hymn called Candlelight and another one called Follow My Leader (or The Journey of Life). Good choir, nice soloists and I included them in my playlists. Had I had an idea that there exists so much more (and musically more interesting) of such sacred choral music, I would have made a run on English cathedral music already as a child.

This is part of why I felt like coming home, when I discovered Libera and, Libera opening the door, so-so much more and sublime, incredible, beautiful music touching my heart to its bottom.

[Citlec]

Thank you for your enthusiastic reply.

It was interesting to read how you came across the rhymes because ones like "Oranges and Lemons" are very much a British, or maybe even specifically an English tradition. I have no idea where I heard it first, and it's particularly a mystery as I went to a Welsh language school up until I was 10yo. Did I learn it during the English lessons at the school, did I hear it on TV?! Who knows, but somehow it still became part of my cultural reference. (Which is why it was used in 1984 as an example of The Party's successful eradication of shared English culture.)

It's also interesting to read about its influence on your musical journey. My love of music is from my dad, but there are obviously other influences, singing in the choir for my Welsh school, my music teachers at school, my time in a youth orchestra, even my mother, who by her own admission is musically inept, played her part. She did take me to see The Nutcracker at the Royal Festival Hall when I was still in single digit birthdays, which is my earliest memory of classical music.

I was in town yesterday with a vague idea of wandering over to one or two of the churches, but then it rained and I ended up going to see Guys and Dolls at the Bridge Theatre instead. So, no new churches visited yet, but I did book the ticket to the musical while sheltering from the rain under the portico of St-Martin-in-the-Fields, so there was still a small connection to the rhyme.

Kettles and pans,
Say the bells of St. Ann's.

While reading about the churches I discovered that one is now home to the Voces8 Foundation, which I believe is a choir you like?

https://voces8.foundation/the-voces8-ce ... nes-church

By the way you ask, "why the cruelty?" I'd say it's because it makes it more interesting and memorable, and you also have to remember these were written in very different times. Germany's Grimm's Fairy Tales also has quite a few examples of very horrible things happening! You could in fact say, that some of them are quite grim...

[Citlec]

Made progress this weeknd! Visited several from the outside, two of which were open but one was a private service and the other was setting up for a concert. But I made it as far as the Whitechapel.

Whitechapel Bell Foundry

One of two possible locations referenced by the line:

Two sticks and an apple,
Say the bells at Whitechapel.

The Bell Foundry closed in 2016 and despite attempts to save it and reopen it, it remains a derelict and empty with sadly accumulating graffiti on its front.

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WhitechapelBellFoundry.JPG (183.56 KiB) Viewed 1697 times

St Mary's, Whitechapel

The second possible location referenced in the bells at Whitechapel line. It was firebombed in the Blitz and demolished in 1952. Its nave's stone footprint and graveyard are now a park.

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StMarysWhitechapel.JPG (633.85 KiB) Viewed 1697 times

St Pancras Old Church

St Pancras Old Church, said to be the one behind the old version of the song with the line:

When I am Rich,
Ring ye Bells at Fleetditch

Because the river Fleet ran oozed nearby. (It was already a sewer by that point)

J.S. Bach's youngest son https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Christian_Bach is buried there.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Pancras_Old_Church

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St Martin Orgar

An alternate church for the line:

You owe me five farthings,
Say the bells of St. Martin's.

Mostly burnt down in the fire of London then eventually pulled down completely. It now consists of a plaque on the wall, a tower built in tribute later, and a fragment of the churchyard.

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StMartinOrgar.JPG (592.5 KiB) Viewed 1693 times

[Citlec]

Well, I made progress again this last three days with 30 miles of walking. (Only some of that for the Oranges and Lemons churches - some of it was for pubs and Banksy)

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BanksyMonkeys.jpg (418.33 KiB) Viewed 1540 times

I have now visited the outside at least of every location I believe has been mentioned in versions of the rhyme. Also managed to see the inside of both of the St Clements churches, St Dunstans in Stepney, St Margaret's behind the bank of England, and St Peter's cornhill.

That leaves the Shoreditch church, which a quite sarcastic Irish gardener told me to try on a Sunday... St Botolph without Aldgate and St Helen's Bishopsgate will also have to wait for another Sunday.

But with St Ann's now the Voces8 centre I'll probably have to wait for a concert or event.

The Bell Foundry may never reopen, in which case the outside is all I'll ever see.

Then there's St John's Chapel... which is inside the Tower of London! You can get in for free, just for the service! But I'm not sure if I'm brave enough to go on my own! What if the Beefeaters behead me and feed me to the Ravens!

Also, other than Banksy, I happened across the Battle of Cable Street mural... which is quite relevant given the recent goings on in the UK.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cable_Street

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CableStreetMural.jpg (404.47 KiB) Viewed 1540 times

[Citlec]

So, my Google map is now updated with photos and proper quotes from the various versions of the song.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit? ... sp=sharing

I noticed when updating that for some of the venues that I have attended for concerts, I have little to no photos of the venues, or rather, none without the musicians. So, that's another task.

In my wandering's over the weekend I did ponder the thought of making it a goal to hear a music performance in not only the churches of the rhyme, but in Central London churches in general, as I noted an interesting September evensong (at a completely different church) in my wanderings... well, we'll see.

In other news, the insidious creep of Google marketing got a win! Earlier today it recommended me the Cable Street Musical, at the Southwark Playhouse.

https://southwarkplayhouse.co.uk/produc ... le-street/